Stigmata & possession - proof of mind over matter?

[paigetheoracle]

I might well have posted this thread before but if so here it is again. Also if you feel it should be placed in the Theology forum, please move it to there or even the Social Sciences, if you think it belongs under Psychology.

Stigmata (signs of crucifixion) and possession are both related in my opinion. Both show alteration to the body through the mind - one through wish fulfillment (wanting to be like their hero, so imitating his demise symptoms) and rebellion against church indoctrination - hence cursing, spitting and unsaid words appearing on the skin of the victims (suppression coming out in Freudian slips of the worst kind): William Peter Batty and 'The Exorcist'.

Stigmata have been proved, not to be fake wounds but to be in the wrong place for a true Roman crucifixion (through wrists and ankles, not palms of hands and feet). Medieval painters created what they thought was the correct procedure for this method of execution and the Stigmatics imitated it (According to historians it wasn't shaped like a T at all but an X).

[Moontanman]

Originally Posted by paigetheoracle

I might well have posted this thread before but if so here it is again. Also if you feel it should be placed in the Theology forum, please move it to there or even the Social Sciences, if you think it belongs under Psychology.

How about Strange Claims?

Stigmata (signs of crucifixion) and possession are both related in my opinion. Both show alteration to the body through the mind - one through wish fulfillment (wanting to be like their hero, so imitating his demise symptoms) and rebellion against church indoctrination - hence cursing, spitting and unsaid words appearing on the skin of the victims (suppression coming out in Freudian slips of the worst kind): William Peter Batty and 'The Exorcist'.

Yes they are related it's called faking, as for letters appearing on the skin i think you've seen to many movies. do you have any evidence for these "effects" other than movies and religion?

Stigmata have been proved, not to be fake wounds but to be in the wrong place for a true Roman crucifixion (through wrists and ankles, not palms of hands and feet). Medieval painters created what they thought was the correct procedure for this method of execution and the Stigmatics imitated it (According to historians it wasn't shaped like a T at all but an X).

Stigmata have been proved? Can you give us this proof?

[CraigD]

Originally Posted by paigetheoracle

Stigmata have been proved, not to be fake wounds but to be in the wrong place for a true Roman crucifixion (through wrists and ankles, not palms of hands and feet).

Originally Posted by Moontanman

Stigmata have been proved? Can you give us this proof?

As with many alleged supernatural events, proving that stigmata are due to something other than ordinary injury (typically self inflicted) is difficult, because witnesses to the alleged spontaneous formation of the wounds have never, to my knowledge, included a reliable skeptical witness. In most cases, there is only the word of the stigmatic that their wound were caused by something other than them scratching or cutting themselves.

Unfortunately, as Paige’s assertion that stigmata have been proven to be other than ordinary injuries shows, the lack of credible evidence that they, or other effects such as writing appearing as discoloration or swelling of the skin, is not common knowledge, leading many people to believe that such events, while rare, have actually been observed, and to offer various explanations for their occurrence, some supernatural, some natural.

The idea that one could, through a purely mental, “mind-over-body” act, spontaneously inflict or heal physical injury is very attractive, as it suggest that one might be able to learn special techniques to make oneself somewhat impervious to injury and/or disease. However, as attractive as the idea is, there appears to be no scientifically sound evidence that mind-over-body phenomena like stigmata ever occur.

This is not to say that mind-over-body is impossible, or even unusual. Nearly everybody, in my experience, has the ability to perform feats such as slowing their breathing, heart rate, and blood pressure via mental relaxation techniques. No one, however, appears to have the ability to cause wounds to appear in their skin other than by inflicting those wounds with tooth, nail, or blade.

[maddog]

Originally Posted by paigetheoracle

(According to historians it wasn't shaped like a T at all but an X).

I would expect that of the Romans as they are big on "X"s.

maddog

[paigetheoracle]

Originally Posted by Moontanman

How about Strange Claims?

Which is where it is

Yes they are related it's called faking, as for letters appearing on the skin i think you've seen to many movies. do you have any evidence for these "effects" other than movies and religion?

You have proof that every stigmatic is a fake? Is this biased attitude truly scientific or just dismissive without personal investigation of the phenomena? What constitutes proof in your estimation?


Stigmata have been proved? Can you give us this proof?

On a documentary on British TV a doctor examined a female stigmatics wounds as they occurred before the film crew and stated that the blood was coming through the skin, with no visible wounds: There is a medical condition I believe (Michaelangelica or someone else with a medical background on the forums, may be able to provide back up and more information) where people bleed from the tear ducts - if this is possible, why not the sweat glands, in theory at least?

By the way CraigD, thanks for the truly unbiased and scientific reply

[maddog]

Originally Posted by CraigD

Unfortunately, as Paige’s assertion that stigmata have been proven to be other than ordinary injuries shows, the lack of credible evidence that they, or other effects such as writing appearing as discoloration or swelling of the skin, is not common knowledge, leading many people to believe that such events, while rare, have actually been observed, and to offer various explanations for their occurrence, some supernatural, some natural.

I have heard of such example cases. None have I heard had such incontravertable
evidence as even that of the Shroud of Turin (not that had much either). There has
been no "smoking-gun" that I am aware of.

Originally Posted by CraigD

This is not to say that mind-over-body is impossible, or even unusual. Nearly everybody, in my experience, has the ability to perform feats such as slowing their breathing, heart rate, and blood pressure via mental relaxation techniques. No one, however, appears to have the ability to cause wounds to appear in their skin other than by inflicting those wounds with tooth, nail, or blade.

There are sufis or monks who can control there heartbeat, even stop it and start it
again. Pugelism was claimed in China at the end of the 19th Century where chinese
practitioners would be impervious to bullets! Even today, videos have been made where
people either in trance or not, can pierce there bodies with various device (sharp) and
show no trauma, blood letting or damage thereafter. How they do this is unknown.
Walking on coals. I have friends who have tried this (even though I think it is crazy).
They are not harmed. The mind is a powerful thing.

maddog

[paigetheoracle]

Originally Posted by maddog

I have heard of such example cases. None have I heard had such incontravertable
evidence as even that of the Shroud of Turin (not that had much either). There has
been no "smoking-gun" that I am aware of.

There are sufis or monks who can control there heartbeat, even stop it and start it
again. Pugelism was claimed in China at the end of the 19th Century where chinese
practitioners would be impervious to bullets! Even today, videos have been made where
people either in trance or not, can pierce there bodies with various device (sharp) and
show no trauma, blood letting or damage thereafter. How they do this is unknown.
Walking on coals. I have friends who have tried this (even though I think it is crazy).
They are not harmed. The mind is a powerful thing.

maddog

Thank you Maddog!

Nice to know I am not alone in this.

I saw film recently of a Russian who could his breath underwater for a long period, get into a bath of scalding hot water with little reaction and pull a locomotive with his teeth or some other minor part of his anatomy. Determination is the key. The thing is like playing football or getting involved in sports like bungey jumping - it's not what I'd want to do with my life but you've got to admire others who do it because of the risks they take and the results they get (Bet such people aren't much in the way of book worms as I believe you can only go one way or the other - invest your time in thought or action, not both - especially at the same time).

With regards to the shroud of Turin I've heard it's supposed to be a painted fake but if so how come they haven't proved it's that, with forensic science supposedly being so slick nowadays?

Lastly, I suggest sceptics look into how much money actually goes into paranormal research as opposed to conventional science inquiry. It's a minute amount because it is seen as having no practical application or it's just too unreliable in its effects. If you want to know why there is so little scientific data backing up claims of the paranormal, this is why - conventional science isn't interested because it doesn't have a good monetary return and cannot be pinned down as an effect either (read Dean Radin's book 'Entangled Minds' for further information, if you're bothered enough to that is or Charles Tart's research etc).

[CraigD]

Originally Posted by maddog

There are sufis or monks who can control there heartbeat, even stop it and start it again.

This claim is common, and generally includes that these adepts can stop or nearly stop their hearts on demand and with only brief preparation, so demonstrating it in a controlled, scientific setting should be easy. However, I’ve never encountered a credible account of this having been done. Until I do, I’m skeptical that it’s ever actually been done.

Maddog, do you have a reference that backs this up?

It’s fairly easy to stop the heart medically – an injection of potassium chloride is a common technique – and restart it, but I can’t think of any physiologically possible way that the hear could be stopped with any mental technique.

Anatomically, the heart is a largely self-contained organ, with much of its nervous system built-in, so that the signals it receives from the brain are more “advisory/regulatory” than directly controlling. Hear muscle cells are very specialized, many actually contracting with a regular rhythm even if removed from the heart. The heart itself will continue beating for a while if removed from the body, stopping when its becomes oxygen starved due to lack of oxygenated blood supply.

An electric shock – electrocution – can stop the heart, not actually stilling it after the current is, but causing it to loose coordination and fibrillate, but the power required to do this is much greater than can be produced by the nervous system

Originally Posted by maddog

Pugelism was claimed in China at the end of the 19th Century where Chinese practitioners would be impervious to bullets!

Again, there’s simply no scientific explanation for, or evidence of, this being possible, other than by protecting – armoring – the body, or reducing the speed and other physical characteristics of the bullets.

Again, it’s very easy – though very dangerous – claim to test. [quote]Even today, videos have been made where people either in trance or not, can pierce there bodies with various device (sharp) and show no trauma, blood letting or damage thereafter. How they do this is unknown.[quote] With a sufficiently sharp, thin device, it’s very easy to pierce the body without injuring it very much. Most of us have experienced this when being stuck with a hypodermic needle. Though we don’t usually experience it, you can actually completely piece body parts such as cheeks and forearms with long, thin hypodermic needles, usually with little, and sometime no, bleeding.

Walking on coals. I have friends who have tried this (even though I think it is crazy). They are not harmed.

I’ve firewalked a few times. The occasions were a regular party put on by my college advisor (an astrophysicist), who rented a house on a hill with a big, ragged lawn suitable for making a good firepit. Of my own and the hundred or so walks by a few dozen people I’ve seen, nobody had any injury worse than a few small blisters (2nd degree burns) where small coals stuck to their feet, usually between the toes.

Anyone able to walk steadily and maintain their mental calm can firewalk. It requires no training beyond a bit of “don’t do this” advice (the main don’ts being “don’t jump or run” - as this can result in your feet digging in to more than the surface layer of hot coals, and getting them stuck to your feet – and, obviously, “don’t stop walking”, as, if you stand in hot coals long enough, you will eventually cook, starting with your feet). Preparing the coals is important, too, especially making sure that the pit’s got nothing but coals on top of the coals – especially no nails or other metal, as it can brand skin quickly. The above linked wikipedia article has a decent short summary of the physics of firewalking.

In short, beyond the mental control necessary to set aside fear and avoid panic, firewalking doesn’t require any special mental abilities.

The mind is a powerful thing.

True, but the physiological system that embodies it, the nervous system, though of central importance to organisms like humans, has definite limitations in its function.

Claims of extraordinary mind-over-body abilities are, I think, in large part due to wishful thinking, rather than evidence-supported science. The belief that one’s mind can make the body resist injury (other than in its usual way of getting the body out of the way of it), cure disease (other than by its usual way of reducing physiological stress so that the body’s other systems can better function, and finding and/or self-administering medicine and medical treatment) and other feats is very comforting and attractive, but is little to not at all supported by scientific theory and evidence.

Originally Posted by paigetheoracle

Lastly, I suggest sceptics look into how much money actually goes into paranormal research as opposed to conventional science inquiry.

I’d be interested in seeing these figures. Can you provide them, Paige?

If you include paranormal entertainment – the many fiction and non-fiction books, movies, TV shows, and other products about the supernatural – I suspect nearly as much or possibly even more money is spent on and made in this area than in mainstream science. Human society is largely based on supply and demand driven market economies, and there is a great demand for good and services related to the supernatural.

[paigetheoracle]

Originally Posted by CraigD

I’d be interested in seeing these figures. Can you provide them, Paige?

If you include paranormal entertainment – the many fiction and non-fiction books, movies, TV shows, and other products about the supernatural – I suspect nearly as much or possibly even more money is spent on and made in this area than in mainstream science. Human society is largely based on supply and demand driven market economies, and there is a great demand for good and services related to the supernatural.

I'd agree with the entertainment model mentioned above - can I provide the figures? No, not off hand as I read it Dean Radin's book 'Entangled Minds' but didn't take note of the figure quoted as I didn't think I'd need it again, relying on my memory of it. What I will do is try to contact Dr Radin for the figure or look it up independently on the net (no promises as he didn't reply last time I contacted him and I've no idea whether this will come up in Google).

I personally think that the Experimenter Effect is proof of mind over matter and if Spooky Action at a Distance happens with atoms, why not the atoms in one's mind or the bodies of other people? As for the paranormal not making sense, how about The Double Slit Experiment as palpable sounding nonsense for anyone to try to get their head round and what's more, more implausible sounding than most claims for the psychic or supernatural?

By the way, one quote on the subject I will give from the book, that backs up what I said about Psychic Research and which also applies to what the Ministry of Defence in the UK has said about UFO's ("Of no defence significance"). 'We found experimentally that ESP exists but no practical application of it is likely to occur in the foreseeable future" Masanobu Sakaguchi (Spokesman for ESPER at Sony Labs) Page 78, Entangled Minds by Dean Radin (paraphrased as it was put a little awkwardly but without altering meaning).

[stereologist]

Lastly, I suggest sceptics look into how much money actually goes into paranormal research as opposed to conventional science inquiry. It's a minute amount because it is seen as having no practical application or it's just too unreliable in its effects. If you want to know why there is so little scientific data backing up claims of the paranormal, this is why - conventional science isn't interested because it doesn't have a good monetary return and cannot be pinned down as an effect either (read Dean Radin's book 'Entangled Minds' for further information, if you're bothered enough to that is or Charles Tart's research etc).

This is tired and trite argument. The reason that no money goes into an area of research is that it didn't pan out. Money was spent in paranormal research at one time. My father was at Duke when Rhine began his research. Millions of dollars were spent. Unfortunately, Rhine and others let themselves be duped by charlatans. The positive results turned out to be fraud.

BTW, the record holding breath is 17 min 44 seconds without passing out. Not sure how well the Russian mention did that was mentioned in this thread.