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Old 05-04-2009   #21 (permalink)
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Re: Pseudoscience

I recommend Richard Dawkin's "Enemies of Reason" series for an interesting look into lots of different pseudoscience.



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Last edited by freeztar; 05-04-2009 at 05:40 PM.. Reason: Wrong episode...new vid posted
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Old 05-04-2009   #22 (permalink)
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Arrow The baloney detection kit

Quote:
Originally Posted by lemit View Post
Also, would anybody like to tackle the question of how we can recognize pseudoscience when we encounter it in everyday life? In other words, what are the everyday solutions to an everyday problem?
My favorite is a collection of “tools” known as the “baloney detection kit”, taken and slightly adapted from a chapter of Carl Sagan’s 1995 book “The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark”. They’re few, short, obvious and common-sensical, and like any collection of tools, not guaranteed to assure infallible success, but a good foundation.


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Old 05-04-2009   #23 (permalink)
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Re: Pseudoscience

CraigD:

Very good citation from a very good book I'd forgotten I'd read. Thanks for the reminder.

--lemit


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Old 05-05-2009   #24 (permalink)
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Re: Pseudoscience

Organics is not pseudo science they Just haven't got the PR resources of Multinationals.
A lot of science is psudoscience and managed by press release. How often do you see"new discovery revolutionises- - - -"with a sub text of in 5-10 years if you give me lots more funding

The company making the swine flu anti-viral is the company testing it.

On agricultural chemicals
On chemicals I think a distinction can be made for what I would like to call "plastic-man-made" chemicals and 'everyday' ones.
My plastic-man-made chemicals differ from your everyday chemical in that they are
1. Made by man, not naturally occurring.
2. Do not break down readily. Some with half lives of 10-20+ years.
3. Are foreigners to the food chain with not completely understood effects and affects.
4. No "wee beastie" has worked out how to degrade, disassemble or eat them yet.
5. Are relative recent visitors to the planet The last 50-100 years say.
The issues are:-
1. does the new man made chemical degrade? What is its half life? Does it break down into something more poisonous? (as does DDT to DDE)
2. Does it bio-accumulate?
3. Do we know its long term effects on the mammals at the top of the food chain (Eg extinction of mothering instinct with Californian seals).
5 What diseases eg tetrogenic, cancer, brain, obesity might it case because of its accumulation and long half life and ability to disperse thought the entire planet not just your cabbage.
6. What are its effects/affects in the ecosystem and to wildlife such as frogs, birds etc.
7. is there a better way?

There are plenty of pest control methods that don't involve sprays
Plenty of sprays that degrade within a few days. This is the beauty of organic sprays. Sure you MAY have to spray more often but at least is does degrade The DDT put on my grandfather by the Army in 1944 is still wandering about the planet, some as the more toxic DDE.

Starting in the 1900s and really getting into swing with WW2 chemists started making a new class of chemicals. Chemicals that the Earth had never seen before. These are the chemicals that worry me and worried Rachel Carson when she invented "ecology" and the "environment" movement single-handedly with her book Silent Spring Rachel Carson was literate, and a good communicator-rare in a scientist- and a well educated biologist.
She was actively, under-handily, undermined by chemical companies in her day, and she is still being pilloried by many chemical multi-nationals even now who want to re-write history.
Many of the chemicals she talked about have been banned but many are still with us. Some literally in the bodies of mammals. Some, now being re-branded sold as cures for malaria or whatever.

With the way mass media is controlled by just a few companies, counting their pennies; multinationals are finding it even easier to get their point of view across; even to the extent of filming segments for the nightly news. Many have better equipped and resourced media departments than large national Television Stations. Exxon, for example, makes about $US40+ Billion a year, a lot more than any media conglomerate- even Fox.



The over use of Chemicals a is also an issue. "bugs are bad" is the mantra of so many TV adds.
EG#1
China’s annual production capacity of Glyphosate iis estimated at between 500,000 tonnes and 600,000 tonnes. Fortunately, Glyphosate is is not as toxic as most, although we did lose a lot of frogs with its surfactant, and some studies are coming out now that are worrying.
Monsanto's whole GM business is predicated on Glyphosate being harmless. It is the cornerstone of the company's biotechnology/engineering programme. So it will be a long time before adverse (pseudoscience?) reports see the light of day..

EG#2
Quote:
Americans spend over $1 billion and apply over 70 million pounds of pesticides to suburban lawns-alone- each year, making storm-water runoff a leading source of water pollution.
Pesticides:
kill thousands of beneficial insects, including honeybees, wasps, and ladybugs, for every insect that they attempt to control, and destroy the balance of nature.
are especially harmful to children. Children absorb more pesticides relative to their body weight and are unable to detoxify from the chemicals as their organs are still developing.

Each year more than 43,000 children under age six are exposed to concentrations of pesticides high enough to cause cancer, respiratory illness, and central nervous system damage.
Eco-Tips :: Natural Pest Management

If pyrethrum is so toxic why are synthetic pyrethrins used is just about every domestic fly spray.


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Last edited by Michaelangelica; 05-05-2009 at 08:13 AM.. Reason: pardon the pun
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Old 05-15-2009   #25 (permalink)
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Re: Pseudoscience

Michaelangelica,

Check out Welcome to American Council on Science and Health

On their homepage, they have a lot of newspaper citations supporting their point of view, which is that anything that restricts big business for the benefit of the people is bad.

It's interesting to me, and it might be interesting to you, that many of those citations are from newspapers belonging to your countryman, an export I'm sure you're proud of. (We'd let you have him back. Just leave us "The Simpsons.")

This organization makes the book and movie "Thank You For Smoking" seem like a documentary. They blindly support using chemicals for agriculture, probably because it's hard to see over the stacks of money the chemical companies put in front of them.

I know both of my brothers have been given a lot of money by chemical companies. One of them, who passed away a few years ago, then promoted the chemicals over a large chunk of Kansas. The other has used the money to support supposedly government-funded research that seems meaningless except that it supports the use of chemicals in livestock feed, strangely enough.

Thank you for your post, which coincided with a "Daily Show" piece on the above organization and gave me a chance to rant and to remind people that pseudoscience can be dangerous to your health.

--lemit


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Old 05-28-2009   #26 (permalink)
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Arrow Re: Pseudoscience

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Originally Posted by lemit View Post
This is something I've wanted to do for a long time.

Over the years, I've come to love (as a journalist, historian, and editor) the very strange things people strongly believe is science.
--lemit

p.s. Any suggestions on how to get that music to stop?
By all indications, the music plays on.
So I earlier declined to expound on my list of pseudoscientificals, unless you were to ask specifically for a particular, as I felt doing so perpetuated the clap-trap. As luck has it, one way or the other , the silly business of Earth has an hydrogen core has risen it's pseudoscientific noggin here again all of its own accord.

Everything you need to know is in the threads listed here: >> http://hypography.com/forums/search.php?searchid=372863

Should you be caught or killed reading them, the secretary will disavow any knowledge of your actions.


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Old 05-31-2009   #27 (permalink)
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Re: Pseudoscience

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Originally Posted by Turtle View Post
By all indications, the music plays on.
So I earlier declined to expound on my list of pseudoscientificals, unless you were to ask specifically for a particular, as I felt doing so perpetuated the clap-trap. As luck has it, one way or the other , the silly business of Earth has an hydrogen core has risen it's pseudoscientific noggin here again all of its own accord.

Everything you need to know is in the threads listed here: >> http://hypography.com/forums/search.php?searchid=372863

Should you be caught or killed reading them, the secretary will disavow any knowledge of your actions.
Yes, like I said I had wanted to do this for a long time. When I did my research before starting the thread, I saw I wouldn't be the first one to broach the subject, not even counting the ones who have done so accidentally. But I didn't see much scholarship in the other threads, as there really should be in a science forum. So I decided it was time for that, along with the lists.

There are many people (mostly on the other side of the fence) who say that all science starts as unsupported pseudoscientific theory. If you don't think about it too much, that makes sense. In fact, you can think about it a long time and it stilll makes sense. Finally, of course, if you apply some historical context, you realize the idea is akin to suggesting that each of us is supplied a brand new genetic code at birth. But it's hard to get to that point.

As I mentioned earlier, that is an unfortunate problem with folklore, of which pseudoscience is a branch. It appeals to our sense of order, of justice, and of humor. The dry facts of real science are much less . . . well, appealing.

So, Turtle, this is your chance to present a well-reasoned post either for or against a pseudoscientific theory. In fact, I would like to challenge you or anybody else to present a theory in such a way that nobody can tell if it is science or pseudoscience.

I have my own didactic reasons for the proposal. For now, though, have fun with it.

Good luck!

--lemit


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A mind is a terrible thing to close.

Entropy is just nature's way of telling us it's time to slow down.
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Old 05-31-2009   #28 (permalink)
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Arrow Re: Pseudoscience

Quote:
Originally Posted by lemit View Post
Yes, like I said I had wanted to do this for a long time. When I did my research before starting the thread, I saw I wouldn't be the first one to broach the subject, not even counting the ones who have done so accidentally. But I didn't see much scholarship in the other threads, as there really should be in a science forum. So I decided it was time for that, along with the lists.
Unfortunately, the scholarship gets drowned out by the perps incessant high-pitched whining, and after all, the purveyors aren't really after scholarship anyway. I do think having the scholarship included is important of course, more for a matter of record for later readers rather than the promulgators.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lemit
There are many people (mostly on the other side of the fence) who say that all science starts as unsupported pseudoscientific theory.
Yep; ususally here it's stated as "science is just a belief too" along with some epithets.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lemit
As I mentioned earlier, that is an unfortunate problem with folklore, of which pseudoscience is a branch. It appeals to our sense of order, of justice, and of humor. The dry facts of real science are much less . . . well, appealing.

So, Turtle, this is your chance to present a well-reasoned post either for or against a pseudoscientific theory. In fact, I would like to challenge you or anybody else to present a theory in such a way that nobody can tell if it is science or pseudoscience.

I have my own didactic reasons for the proposal. For now, though, have fun with it.

Good luck!

--lemit
If you didn't have a look at the Urantia stuff here, then by all means do as it pretty well fits the bill for me well-reasoning the snot out of some pseudo-science. Got some good one liners in there too, as if that is hard for you to imagine from me.

As to making something up or trying to put lipstick on someone else's pig, I won't have any part of that. That's not how I roll, to put it in some vulgar vernacular. I stand for truth, justice, and the hard-shell way.


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Last edited by Turtle; 05-31-2009 at 10:46 PM..
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Old 05-31-2009   #29 (permalink)
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Re: Pseudoscience

Turtle,

Thanks for the referral. "Urantia" sounds like a multinational corporation or maybe a kidney disorder. I'm already beginning to dread what it actually is, but I'm sure I'll find a lot of laughs there.

Again, thanks.

--lemit


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The only second chance we get in life is a chance to make the same mistake twice. --David Mamet

A mind is a terrible thing to close.

Entropy is just nature's way of telling us it's time to slow down.

Last edited by lemit; 05-31-2009 at 11:30 PM..
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Old 05-31-2009   #30 (permalink)
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Re: Pseudoscience

I just did an internet search. Turns out "Urantia" is a multinational kidney disorder. Who would have guessed?

--lemit


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The only second chance we get in life is a chance to make the same mistake twice. --David Mamet

A mind is a terrible thing to close.

Entropy is just nature's way of telling us it's time to slow down.
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