Mystery!

[Buffy]

Originally Posted by Damo2600

I do not know and neither do you.

Gee, I was only asking questions... I didn't say I knew anything other than my familiarity with these languages indicates they would have a lot of trouble indicating with much specificity what they meant, and if it was a rare language of a tribe with basically no contact with the outside world, it would take years to discern the meaning of "unknown" words. It would be good to consider the ramifications of the questions instead of dismissing them out of hand... Antrhopologists also would want to investigate the provenance of the information: who else was on the expedition? Were tapes made? Were the drawings photographed? Were there pictographs or pottery or etchings with pictures of the legend? What are the basic beliefs of their religion? Is it mono- or polytheistic? Animistic? Zoroastrian (very common in northern Africa, even in remote locations)?

Originally Posted by Damo2600

I'm feeling comfortable, unlike the skeptics, with this remaining an unexplained phenomenom.

Cool! It just sounded a whole lot more authoritative in your original post....I'm not sure too many people would not consider it unexplained, even including the skeptics, without the questions I've asked being investigated. Maybe its best just leaving it a mystery and not try to explain it at all? Okay...

Cheers,
Buffy

[Damo2600]

Originally Posted by Buffy

Cool! It just sounded a whole lot more authoritative in your original post....I'm not sure too many people would not consider it unexplained, even including the skeptics, without the questions I've asked being investigated. Maybe its best just leaving it a mystery and not try to explain it at all? Okay..

Skeptics would consider it explainable in any case that is why they are titled 'skeptics'. The skeptics sites make suggestions that are contradictions of the original story yet can be explained by the original story. I am not about to travel to West Africa as I have bigger fish to fry which is why I stated in my original post 'An interesting tale of the unexplained' followed by a Simpsons quote. Really authoratative Buffy. I merely stated the story.

However don't let my lack of time to research this 'strange story' stop you. West Africa would be rather nice this time of year I'm sure. If your goal is to not accept this story, and not research it, then I am sure you can allow other people to hear it and know it, within your own heart, to be an untruth.

Peace
Josephine

[Tormod]

Moved to strange claims.

Josephine, you are required - as are everyone else - to follow our site rules (previously a part of the FAQ).

Your repeated failure to accept that people here will discuss your posts with counterarguments and counter-evidence then you are in the wrong place.

[Damo2600]

I didn't claim this to be a proven story. I didn't state that Buffy's explanation was wrong. I hvae no problem with counter arguements nor counter evidence. The evidence that was produced I commented on and with regard to the information I was not aware of I stated I did not know. Buffy asked a question to which she herself did not conclusively know the answer to. This is just an example of the unexplained as my post stated.

If you would like to show me evidence conclusive that this strange claim made by the Dogon tribe is untrue then I would like to hear it. Carl Sagan suggested that the native africans have vision greater than the hubble telescope. Now that is a strange claim. There is evidence that this strange claim could be true (on some level) and none to absolutely suggest that it is not true so I have little doubt as to why it seems to have ended up here.

My post stated facts as I had read them.

Josephine

[Tormod]

Originally Posted by Damo2600

Carl Sagan suggested that the native africans have vision greater than the hubble telescope. Now that is a strange claim.

He did what? Where? Sources, please.

My post stated facts as I had read them.

No, it stated hearsay as you had read it from unprovided sources.

You just pointed out on the previous page that you are not a skeptic but like to question the information you are given...why then do you call these things "fact" when you obviously don't think they are?

[Damo2600]

In the link you posted it stated Carl Sagan said due to increased melanin the eyes of the natives were so powerful that they could see Sirius C. Today the Hubble telescope itself can not see it. Carl Sagan could not see it with a telescope either. It's funny Tormod.

I never stated that amphibians from out of space were a fact. It is a fact, as far as I can tell, that the Dogons made these strange claims. Marcel Griaule himself stated that even he doubted the claims. The skeptic sites offered no conclusive evidence of it not being a fact and even contradict the actual facts of the story. IF anyone wants to find out about it I gave enough information they can google. Just because a skeptic says van Beek didn't experience the same thing as Marcel does not make it untrue. IT took Marcel 16 years before they divulged this secret information. Do you think van Beek is just going to waltz in and they would explain it to him? Because Marcel was enthusiastic about Africa does not mean he fabricated the whole story. Finally a language barrier does not mean two people cannot conduct a conversation conclusively. The explanation given by skeptics does not fit the original story as a possibility. This is outlined by myself throughout the post.

If the Dogon wanted to express that the earth rotated then this could be explained through diagrams. IF they wished to describe the Earth orbiting the sun they could explain (pointing)'Sun Sun' ( point to the sun) - 'Earth, Earth' (wave their hands over the Earth) - draw a circle around the sun in the sand. If they wished to explain an eliptical orbit they would draw an elipse around the sun. If they wish to explain that sirius were a star then it would be compared to the sun and not Earth. They can count to fifty I am guessing so they can explain 50 years. I don't know if they have a word for density or how they would explain this. I am guessing they were native not retarded. Marcel spent sixteen years to these people so I am guessing if he managed misunderstand so much after this amount of time then he would need to be a little retarded too. But he was an antropologist so I'm guessing he had some intelligence. If this was the conclusion that he came to from the conversation and he was mistaken and the Dogon were actually discussing how much they liked coconuts and berrys and how it was nice to bathe in the sun on a warm sunday afternoon then I see something extremely wrong with this. The story does not match up that the skeptics put forward. It is way too much to be a simple language barrier. The fact he did not know that sirius had one orbiting sun, let alone two, was a little coincindental if he had made it all up to save Africa.

Perhaps it does have a reasonable expanation. But the facts state otherwise. You can say what you like however the post is now in Strange claims and I suppose that is where it is going to stay. So it all matters not now.

Josephine

[Tormod]

Originally Posted by Damo2600

In the link you posted it stated Carl Sagan said due to increased melanin the eyes of the natives were so powerful that they could see Sirius C. Today the Hubble telescope itself can not see it. Carl Sagan could not see it with a telescope either. It's funny Tormod.

I think you need to reread that article. It is not a known fact that the Dogons claimed anything. The melanin suggestion had nothing to do with Carl Sagan.

Carl Sagan suggested it was all a misunderstanding based on wishful thinking:

Carl Sagan agreed with Temple that the Dogon could not have acquired their knowledge without contact with an advanced technological civilization. Sagan suggests, however, that that civilization was terrestrial rather than extraterrestrial. Perhaps the source was Temple himself and his loose speculations on what he learned from Griaule, who based his account on an interview with one person, Ambara, and an interpreter.

According to Sagan, western Africa has had many visitors from technological societies located on planet earth. The Dogon have a traditional interest in the sky and astronomical phenomena. If a European had visited the Dogon in the 1920's and 1930's, conversation would likely have turned to astronomical matters, including Sirius, the brightest star in the sky and the center of Dogon mythology.

[Damo2600]

You are absolutely correct Tormod.

I didn't read the link properly. I thought I had read it on another site but alas I could not find it. This particular tale had no particular importance to me. I merely placed it on the forum to experiment whether it would last longer than my explanation of relativity. I'm sorry. It did last a lot longer though you'd have to admit that.

I have found the problem with my explanation is mostly due to the word 'illogical'. If I had used the word 'counter-intuitive' my 'opinion' is that it would have lasted a lot longer. Any other problems with the explanation could have been edited.

Now I have looked up the word 'counter-intuitive' and it seems from my POV to be a scientific term to describe 'illogical'. Perhaps if someone could explain the difference I could understand.

As for the case of the Amphibians from sirius I found it to be curious. The Nommo are not a proven fact. The case itself is rather curious and find I that the skeptics view do not explain this case properly.

Marcel Griaule had published a paper called the 'A Sudanese Sirius System'. He co-authored a book 'Le Renard Pale' (The Pale Fox) which was not published until 9 years after he died in 1956. The Dogon tribe staged a prolonged tribute at his funeral.

The questions of skeptic speculations are obvious:

1) If the Dogon passed on the information to Griaule how could they be coersed into telling such a astronomical lie. Perhaps if their lives were threatened then we could see that the lie would be understandable but it would contradict point 2

2) If someone had manufactured this story why would they not base it on available information i.e. why did they come up with the Sirius C. Further if it were manufactured, with information added as to contradict available knowledge, how would they be so accurate with regard to Sirius C. The people involved in this tale were not astrologists.

It doesn't add up.

So I feel this tale has not been accurately explained. I am willing to state that there maybe a reasonable explanation but I don't think it has been found yet.

Josephine