|
Published by Doctordick 04-21-2008
| |||
| |||
| | |||
|
#1
By
Essay
on
04-22-2008
| |
| Re: A rather unorthodox view of relativity. Quote:
I'd like a T-shirt with that: "...and G0d spoke:" ![]() "...and there was light." === "But it is not a statement about reality; it is a statement about your expectations, quite another matter." ...no pun intended, I'm sure.... It is a nice statement that I hope to share with others who seek to help people "get a handle on" or define important, but commonly used words like "fact, truth, theory, and law." "But it is not a statement about reality; it is a statement about your expectations [which are limited to your perceptions, and by your preconceptions], quite another matter." Is that fair? ![]() | |
|
Last edited by Essay; 04-23-2008 at 02:24 AM.
Reason: equation format
|
|
#2
By
Doctordick
on
04-22-2008
| |
| Re: A rather unorthodox view of relativity. Quote:
Have fun -- Dick | |
|
#3
By
Essay
on
04-22-2008
| |
| Re: A rather unorthodox view of relativity. Quote:
I was following your convention; but maybe I should have phrased it as '...one's perceptions, and by one's preconceptions.' p.s. re: my parenthetical addition, "[which are limited to your perceptions, and by your preconceptions]" I'm in total agreement; relativity (or any formalism) doesn't necessarily inform us about the true nature of reality. ...or am I misunderstanding something? ![]() | |
|
Last edited by Essay; 04-22-2008 at 06:47 PM.
Reason: added p.s.
|
|
#4
By
Doctordick
on
04-23-2008
| |
| Re: A rather unorthodox view of relativity. Quote:
I have no way of knowing the answer to that question. I have not the slightest idea as to what is going on in your head as I have no knowledge of what portion of what I have written you have read. Essentially, what I have shown to date is that if one takes the position that the job of a research scientist is to search out the rules which separate the "true" universe from all possible universes, then no classical experiment can provide any guidance on the subject whatsoever. What I have presented up to this point is a pure tautology applicable to any body of information which can be referred to. Classical mechanics is itself a tautology. And I am ready to extend that tautology well beyond what I have already laid out. This thread is nothing but a side note on how relativity arises in that tautology and arguments that the result is experimentally exactly what is produced by Einstein's theory. Have you perused the thread “What can we know of reality?”? Have fun -- Dick | |
|
#5
By
Essay
on
04-23-2008
| ||
| Re: A rather unorthodox view of relativity. Quote:
As I first said, I'd like to quote this for folks who need help understanding concepts like fact, truth, reality, law, etc. Regarding “What can we know of reality?” I'm sure I've seen it (I'll look again), but for the same reasons you point out, I try to avoid nailing down a vision of reality; and so don't want to get too involved in a discussion. Quote:
Allow me to start over; re: your formalism, ![]() I agree wholeheartedly with your conclusion. I especially liked your sentence: "But it is not a statement about reality; it is a statement about your expectations, quite another matter." ...and similarly: "What you need to recognize here is that this is no statement about reality, it is merely a statement about your expectations and the method you use to achieve them. " The mistake I may be making is equating "statement about reality" with your elegant, simplified, all-inclusive, formalism; but I don't think that is my mistake (but..?). I think you are saying that your formalism still does not necessarily describe, or make a "statement about reality." ...and that as a formalism it is still limited to describing only what we can perceive or think of to perceive (or think of to measure). ...or maybe: It can function only to explain what we are capable of expecting it to explain? When you referred to "expectations," I hoped to elaborate and added parenthetically, that expectations are "limited by one's perceptions and preconceptions;" asking finally, if that was a fair assessment. I see elaboration like that as a way of confirming if I understood what you were saying. I did read all of your post. It's been several years since I "learned" all that stuff, but it still looked familiar and coherent; and I liked where you led it to. | ||
|
#6
By
Rade
on
04-23-2008
|
| Re: A rather unorthodox view of relativity. Doctordick, as I understand the case, special relativity was a very important step to "general relativity" theory--that is, Einstein realized that special relativity was incomplete. But (a very important BUT I think), without special relativity Einstein never could have moved to the thought processes needed for general relativity. And, although a revolutionary idea, special relativity only shows that space and time do not have independent existences, they are not absolute, but form a fabric of spacetime that is relative. And this fabric does not provide a "static" view of "reality" as you claim. The physicist Brian Green sums it up nicely (that is, the dynamic aspect of "reality" by merging Einstein special relativity with general relativity): "Space and time become players in the evolving cosmos. They come alive...general relativity provides the choreography for an entwined cosmic dance of space, time, matter, and energy" (B. Green, 2004, The fabric of the Cosmos:Space, time, and the texture of reality. Knopf, NY). Doctordick, perhaps you have derived an alternative view of reality than Einstein concerning "time", but to say that Einstein thinking about relativity theory leads to a "static" view of reality is not accurate. |
|
#7
By
Essay
on
04-23-2008
| |
| Re: A rather unorthodox view of relativity. P.S. to my previous post: Quote:
23 long pages; that's why I responded here (much less to read). These past few years I'm focusing on climate change and saving a future so others can continue these fascinating metaphysical discussions into the future. | |
|
#8
By
Doctordick
on
04-26-2008
| ||
| Re: A rather unorthodox view of relativity. Quote:
![]() Quote:
![]() That makes it quite clear that you do not understand what I am talking about. The central relationship being discussed isand if you do not know what the symbols in that expression stand for and why that equation must be true, there is no comprehension of what I am talking about. If you have any interest in what I am saying, start with post #33 and follow my conversation with Anssi. That would only be a small fraction of the posts on that thread. If that is too much for you to read, don't worry about it. is a mere facet of that representation. Have fun -- Dick | ||
|
#9
By
AnssiH
on
04-26-2008
|
| Re: A rather unorthodox view of relativity. Just wanted to comment that this seems to make perfect sense to me. If the fundamental equation can be used to yield special relativity, it can certainly be used to yield any logically equivalent take on the same matter. If the fundamental equation does not have any fatal flaws, then I cannot fathom what is it in it that makes physicists look away... ...other than the annoyingly persistent tendency to confuse ontology with predictive models of reality. Why do people do that? It is kind of amazing to me. In fact, there has been fair amount of "groping among mere concepts" in this thread already, I would say... The title refers to "unorthodox view", and let me just mention that the typical "orthodox view" (as commented by Brian Green), is an arbitrary interpretation of the math. Amazingly arbitrary. Actually before I get to that, I need to comment that the OP actually seems to make some sloppy comments regarding the history of special relativity. These are irrelevant to the logic of the argument, but any sort of sloppiness may put off some people who would otherwise find the argument quite reasonable. I'm sorry I will also be somewhat sloppy now as I have no time to look for references, but as far as I know; Einstein has claimed he did not even know about M&M experiment when he put out the first paper about special relativity. There was other problems (e.g. where the electromagnetic field of an object "points" when that object is moving or when it is stationary) that ultimately led to the re-definition of simultaneity as relative to direction of motion, and rest followed; it is that definition that opened the door to this new model, and also constrained everything else in the model the way they are today. I do not know what sort of ontological take Einstein had about all this at first (if any), but let it be said that it was his old math teacher, Minkowski, who only couple years later pushed the idea of conceiving special relativity in terms of 4-dimensional spacetime. Einstein has commented that at first he did not think much of that idea, but later he certainly did come to think of his model in exactly those terms. And yes Rade, that view is static (depending on what you happen to mean by "static" and "dynamic" exactly). Like Doctordick mentioned, that view is dynamic the same way as a moving film reel is dynamic, and I have commented quite a few times that you tend to end up to (slightly incoherent) dualistic view if you really feel the need to lift that interpretation into "ontologically real" status... (some people actually do like to imagine their "consciousness" running through that static spacetime )But now, without bothering how we got there, take a good look at that end result; that 4-dimensional spacetime which marks all the events that ever were and ever will be, and that completely defines the causality of everything. Notice now that any relativistic simultaneity planes - the original key components of the model - are completely immaterial/unobservable entities. Likewise, the "scale transformation" (allow me to call it that because that is what it is) that is performed for the whole spacetime when you move from one inertial frame to another, will never have ANY effect on the events and their causality that has been defined into that spacetime; that transformation is also completely immaterial/unobservable thing. I can't imagine anyone has got any problems with the assertions in the previous paragraph, so seems to me it is to be expected that there exists, if one could be bothered to look, a wide variety of models that actually yield everything that "relative simultaneity" yields in that all-familiar geometrical analysis of space & time. There should be nothing unorthodox in me saying that. Claiming that we are a consciousness flying through a static spacetime - or pushing any ontological interpretation for that matter - should be unorthodox to scientific community since it is, did I already say it, arbitrary interpretation of logic. I'm sorry I cannot be completely crystal clear in this post, I need to go to sleep right now, I'll clarify unclear comments later ![]() -Anssi |
![]() |
| Bookmarks |
« New silent, microchip-sized computer “fan” has no moving parts
|
Relativity discussion from "Origin of the Universe,,,,Bang or no Bang" »
| Currently Active Users Viewing This Article: 1 (0 members and 1 guests) | |
| Article Tools | |
| |
Similar Threads | ||||
| Article | Article Starter | Category | Comments | Last Post |
| Symposium on space-time view of the relativity,Beidaihe, China, 2007 | Li Zifeng | Strange Claims Forum | 3 | 06-07-2007 08:14 PM |
| Alternate view of Philosophy......... | sebbysteiny | Strange Claims Forum | 11 | 11-20-2006 10:06 AM |
| Einstein's view on Schopenhauer | insight | Philosophy of Science | 10 | 08-03-2006 12:32 PM |
| weatherman's view | wxman2001 | Introductions | 2 | 07-12-2006 06:30 PM |
All times are GMT -8. The time now is 06:27 PM.

















That makes it quite clear that you do not understand what I am talking about. The central relationship being discussed is
)



