[RBlack]

To all,

In addressing one of the challenges of Terra Preta some questions that need to be addressed:
1. How do we get people (gardeners, small plot farmers, others), to use Terra Preta?
2. What can we do to show the benefits of Terra Preta?
3. How can we generate talk and excitement about Terra Preta that warrants its use?

I feel that until we get people, and I mean a lot of people, wanting to use Terra Preta we will just be a fringe movement. Also if we want to promote the carbon sequestration benefit we need a good reason for that and the main reason should be to grow more food in a better sustainable way.

One idea might be to have a Growers Database of Terra Preta techniques and results for specific areas and for specific crops. Right now we have lots of anecdotal evidence of its benefits and most of the scientific papers involve tropical soils with little information on Terra Preta for temperate crops and soils. This may be difficult because all of us are scattered around the world and have a wide variety of climates, crops, and soils but maybe we can identify Terra Preta concepts that apply to all crops and conditions. I feel that is what we are currently doing. How and where to put all this information together is a question that I have no answer for but it would be nice to have a database that if a person had a question on Terra Preta and tomatoes they could get solid information.

Here is something I have wanted to say for awhile and may be somewhat controversial. I don't believe in our modern society we have the political will to really do anything about global warming. I think we will gnash our teeth and wring our hands and come up with numerous band aids but never really do anything major. One reason is that in our capitalistic systems the political process is to beholden to special interests and that includes the people as a whole. I don't see any of us here in America that would approve of $5 gas with the extra money going to research or programs to mitigate global warming and no politician has the will (or would last in office), to do that. So I feel that we may need to find ways to live with global warming and one would be to make sure we maximize our potential to grow food while we minimize the resources needed to do that. That’s where Terra Preta comes in with greater crop yields and reduced fertilization and water costs. I also feel that Terra Preta may work as a soil amendment that could bring into agricultural production marginal lands by modifying the soil texture and structure.

If you have not read Jarod Diamonds book "Collapse" do!! He addresses lots of issues about how societies chose to fail or succeed. One basic idea I got of the book is that as long as we have food we have society and civilization. But without food we have nada. That's the reason I work with Terra Preta.

RB

[Michaelangelica]

Originally Posted by RBlack

To all,

In addressing one of the challenges of Terra Preta some questions that need to be addressed:
1. How do we get people (gardeners, small plot farmers, others), to use Terra Preta?
2. What can we do to show the benefits of Terra Preta?
3. How can we generate talk and excitement about Terra Preta that warrants its use?
. . .
One idea might be to have a Growers Database of Terra Preta techniques and results for specific areas and for specific crops. Right now we have lots of anecdotal evidence of its benefits and most of the scientific papers involve tropical soils with little information on Terra Preta for temperate crops and soils.
. . .
Here is something I have wanted to say for awhile and may be somewhat controversial. I don't believe in our modern society we have the political will to really do anything about global warming.
. . .
If you have not read Jarod Diamonds book "Collapse" do!! He addresses lots of issues about how societies chose to fail or succeed.
RB

I know where you are coming from RBlack it is a sad, disappointed and frustrating place.
Let me see if I can cheer you.
I have a lot of research reports on my computer that might interest you.
I would be happy to send them to you (or anyone else) if you give me your email address (private message). I can't post them because of copyright. (I shouldn't even send them to you! but heck knowledge should be free to all)
The Japanese have been doing 'charcoal in soil' experiments for so long that they often start by saying "It is well known that charcoal. . ." very frustrating also when you don't read Japanese. Most bonsai soils (potting mixes ) I see seem to be packed with fine charcoal. Have you ever wondered how they can get plants to survive in a tea-spoonful of soil?

The whole TP thing is VERY new. You can tell your grandchildren you were in at the beginning. Isn't it good that we have such an interesting, involving, empowering, useful, possible solution to GW? Isn't is better than nothing? What a great gift we have been given by a civilisation we killed.

Forty years ago I was involved with HDRA an organic garden movement. People thought I was nuts. The people we got to meetings looked like escapees from a mental hospital crossed with High Anglicans,- if that makes sense to you. Now Organic farming in a billion dollar industry. It just takes a while for ideas to peculate though society. Even the idea of GW has taken some time to hit public awareness. Fortunately gardeners and farmers talk a lot especially about something that makes their plants grow.

There often seems to me to be an "Apocalypse Complex/theme" running though American (USA) culture. Even here on hypography. Surprising seeing you are mainly protestants (The Apocalypse is only in the Catholic bible). It is as if you can't believe your good luck to be in a rich stable democracy (without habeas corpus but don't get me started on that ). It is as if you feel your situation is fragile and likely to collapse at any moment. It is as if you feel guilty about being rich and should be punished. The number of disaster movies Hollywood churns out is amazing. (Even most of the Sci. Fi. is post-Apocalypse ). Get over it, start watching British and Australian movies. ("Miss Potter" made me proud I was the same species as she was)

There is a new TP site with lots of research papers
HERE:-
Terrapreta@bioenergylists.org
Also check out the Permaculture forums.
Hope that helps.

[erich]

Now, if we could just bottle Michael's spiritual essence, sense of reciprocity, general good cheer, and dedication to saving the earth that I have seen over this last year of having had the honor to converse with him and serve it to the American people, we wouldn't even need TP Technology.

[Michaelangelica]

Originally Posted by erich

Now, if we could just bottle Michael's spiritual essence, sense of reciprocity, general good cheer, and dedication to saving the earth

I blush. You embarrass me!

Have you talked the Chinese around to renewables and TP yet?

[RBlack]

To All,

MalcolmF said:

I can already see one problem with the new thread structure. My response to this news does not belong in the news thread. (Suggestions please Hypography). But here goes:

I mainly agree that it is hard to reply to some part of one thread when the response should be under another. Might be that we just need to get used to the new format but it now is more time consuming to look under multiple threads and hopefully our discussions will not become diluted.

This comment was in a post by Michaelangelica under the news thread:

Will a Multi-Million Dollar Contest Be the Answer to Global Warming?

By Kelpie Wilson, TruthOut.org. Posted February 22, 2007.
. . .
And here's an unintended consequence I have never heard discussed -- what happens to all of the oxygen in the CO2 molecules that get sequestered? When plants pull CO2 out of the air and use it to grow stems and roots, they recycle the oxygen back into the atmosphere. Are we in danger of burying a needful portion of our oxygen deep in the Earth?

Ultimately, Branson's Earth Challenge prize reflects the same attitude that got us into the climate crisis in the first place. It's a wet dream for engineers who now get to play with a whole planet, acting out their favorite science fiction scenarios. If they want to terraform a planet, I say send them to Mars, but don't experiment with the Earth.

In response to the first part: the oxygen that is part of the CO2 comes from the fossil fuels that we have dug up and burned just like the carbon. Otherwise we would have scientists describing "Global Oxygen Depletion".

What I find interesting is that if we can put all the carbon from all the fossil fuel use into the soil as "Terra Preta" and reap the agricultural benefits someday in the far future people may look back at this time as a good thing for the world. After all we will have dug up the carbon, used it as energy, and then converted it back to carbon to make our world more productive and supportive of life.

One idea I had was as I recently was driving through Wyoming was I saw some small watershed valleys that had more bushes, grass, and trees along the bottom than was up on the plateau parts. I thought what would 2 or 3 hundred tons of carbon sequestered in these watersheds do for plant and wildlife habitat? If each valley held or retained 15% more water and the biomass yield was 100 to 300 percent more (typical Terra Preta results), what benefit would this be to the Earth? What would they look like 5 or 10 years down the road? What would these enhanced areas do for the surrounding ecosystem?

This sort of relates to the second part of the above quote: Every since man emerged he has been changing the habitat (terraforming). Just look at what happened to all the large mammals of the Americas when people first got here 12,000 years ago (what large mammals, where did they go?). What we now need to do is engineer the Earth in a productive sustainable way not just for a quick dollar or in a haphazard way. Things right now are out of balance and Terra Preta is a way to rectify that and increase the water retention and productivity of all of our soils.

RB

[Buffy]

Originally Posted by RBlack

I mainly agree that it is hard to reply to some part of one thread when the response should be under another. Might be that we just need to get used to the new format but it now is more time consuming to look under multiple threads and hopefully our discussions will not become diluted.

Here's a tip: You can refer to posts in any other thread by using the vBcode:

RBlack said in [post=164772]his post here[/post] that you should just get used to the new format...

You can find the "post number" in most browsers by placing the cursor over the little green screen thingy: and the number should show up in your status bar at the bottom of the window looking something like this:

http://hypography.com/forums/reputation.php?p=164772

The bolded number is what you want to use in the "post" tag.

If you have questions about this sort of thing, be sure to ask a Mod or Admin. We'd be glad to help!

Cheers,
Buffy

[davidgmills]

All of the above posters seem more concerned about the zoology of terra preta. My real concern is to help Al Gore solve (or shut him up depending upon one's view of Al) the global warming crisis.

So far Al seems to be unaware of TP.

Will TP be the answer to global warming?

If so, then the challenge has to be getting the word out and at the same time fighting off the huge lobbies that will undoubtedly be pestering governments everywhere for more dangerous and costly (to most of us but certainly highly profitable to a few) carbon sequestering solutions.

[Michaelangelica]

[quote=davidgmills;165180]

So far Al seems to be unaware of TP.

Most people are

Will TP be the answer to global warming?

One "Best Energies" pyrolysis machine can produce 25-40 tonnes of charcoal a day (depending on the water content of the char and how long it is run.) This means it needs to be near a big source of organic waste. It produces its own gasses to run itself and has spare electricity either to put back into the grid or to use for some other purpose (water de-salination?).

Somehow there needs to be a demand for this charcoal from farmers, nurserymen and gardeners. Large nurseries should be interested as char can replace expensive perlite and vermiculite and help save water (17-20%) and fertiliser. pH may have to be played with. More research is needed on this.

A retail market would need to be developed for gardeners (which means packaging, safety, labeling etc).

Farmers will need to pay AUD $150-$250 a tonne for the char + cartage and costs in spreading it on their land. So they need to see savings in water, fertiliser use and better crop yields. Perhaps they could be encouraged more by getting carbon credits.

Government Environmental Agencies should be encouraging char use, to stop polluting fertiliser run-off, from farms and large nurseries.

Without this demand for char the economics of building a pyrolysis plant are not there. So now we have the difficult task of creating a demand for a product that has not been made yet! A chicken and egg conundrum.

If so, then the challenge has to be getting the word out

Tell your friends about Hypography and the TP discussion list. Also some good stuff on the Permaculture forums.
It does not take many pyrolysis machines to get to the Branson/Gore's target of a billion tonnes PA carbon sequestered. Each machine will cost about AUD5mil (c.US$4mil).(Probably less if purchased in bulk )

[erich]

Ammonia Scrubbing Technology, Issues of Hg and other By products of Coal combustion

I have been in contact with several chemical engineers, both corporate and government, that basically tell me that the TP/Ammonia scrubbing technology faces no practical hurdles. But when it comes to dealing with the fraction of volatilized mercury up stream scrubbing will be necessary. The non-volatile uranium, thorium, fall out, and that radon also present in coal combustion is of no consequence for this process.

Their general feeling is that direct liquidfaction and IGCC approaches to clean coal are complicated, expensive and except for pumping CO2 down oil gas wells other deep geologic strata sequestration is untested , expensive and also limited in scope.

After a year of researching and running TP-Tech by way more competent folks than I, in the many fields of study to which TP lends itself, I have found no technological road blocks.

Injection of powdered activated carbon (PAC) into the flue gas is currently the front runner technology that is nearest commercialization for mercury (Hg) removal. The PAC needs to be further enhanced with halogens, like bromine, to be really effective with subbituminous coals such as Powder River Basin coals. The Hg-loaded dust is then removed with filter bags (bag houses) or electrostatic precipitators. A problem is that fly ash is typically removed in the same unit, thus resulting in fly ash containing extra carbon (and Hg). That carbon generally makes the fly ash useless as a concrete amendment, thus destroying by-product market value.

In high-sulfur bituminous coal combustion the Hg in generally in ionic form, and can be removed by wet scrubbers . Use of wet scrubbers is being expanded significantly to address mandated SO2 control, thus also achieving a simultaneous co-benefit of Hg removal. The potential downside is the eventual disposition of the Hg that shows up in the byproduct gypsum obtainable from the scrubber sludge. Workarounds are being looked at for these cases above.

There are a bunch of other approaches in various stages of development. , one patent pending, but still only at the laboratory scale, where the Hg is captured within the material of the filter bags, thus keeping the Hg separated from the fly ash. The Hg is disposed of with the old bags at the end of their life, or recovered from the bag material at that time.

Danny Day's process can be fitted at the end of any of the Hg removal steps, though there would be little, if any additional removal credit for NOx or SO2.




Erich J. Knight
Shenandoah Gardens
E-mail: shengar@aol.com
(540) 289-9750

[erich]

Here is my latest post to Rep. Bob Goodlatte (House Agriculture committee)after speaking to him at his Agriculture Conference in Staunton VA on Monday concerning issues for the up comming Farm bill. I also got to button hole Bruce Knight,USDA under secritary for marketing and regulation, Arlen Landcaster, Chief of National Resource & Conservation Service, and John Bricker, Virginia State Consevationist.




Dear Mr. Goodlatte, Mr. Bricker and Mr. Goldberg,

Thanks for hearing my concerns about regulations to support validation of Carbon Credits for the Sequestration of Charcoal in the soils at your Ag Conference Monday.

This soil technology could be the perfect Republican environmental plank. A truly conservative position to take on the stewardship of the planet , a real form of "Creation Care".


After many years of reviewing solutions to anthropogenic global warming (AGW) I believe this technology
can manage Carbon for the greatest collective benefit at the lowest economic price, on vast scales. It just needs to be seen by ethical globally minded companies.

Below is my review of these efforts in the Academic and private sectors, please forward this to all the experts you know, if you think it merits their time and support.

Sen. Byrd and Sen. Rockefeller of W VA and Rep. Udall had very positive responses to Terra Preta soils technology proposals presented to them.

Thanks for your attention

Erich J. Knight
Shenandoah Gardens
E-mail: shengar at aol.com
(540) 289-9750


Could you please consider looking for a champion for this orphaned Terra Preta Carbon Soil Technology.

The main hurtle now is to change the current perspective held by the IPCC that the soil carbon cycle is a wash, to one in which soil can be used as a massive and ubiquitous Carbon sink via Charcoal. Below are the first concrete steps in that direction;

Tackling Climate Change in the U.S.
Potential Carbon Emissions Reductions from Biomass by 2030
by Ralph P. Overend, Ph.D. and Anelia Milbrandt
National Renewable Energy Laboratory
http://www.ases.org/climatechange/toc/07_biomass.pdf


The organization 25x25 (see 25x'25 - Home) released it's (first-ever, 55-page )"Action Plan" ; see http://www.25x25.org/storage/25x25/d...ActionPlan.pdf
On page 31, as one of four foci for recommended RD&D, the plan lists: "The development of biochar, animal agriculture residues and other non-fossil fuel based fertilizers, toward the end of integrating energy production with enhanced soil quality and carbon sequestration."
and on p 32, recommended as part of an expanded database aspect of infrastructure: "Information on the application of carbon as fertilizer and existing carbon credit trading systems."

I feel 25x25 is now the premier US advocacy organization for all forms of renewable energy, but way out in front on biomass topics.


There are 24 billion tons of carbon controlled by man in his agriculture , I forgot the % that is waste, but when you add all the other cellulose waste which is now dumped to rot or digested or combusted and ultimately returned to the atmosphere as GHG, the balanced number is around 24 Billion tons. So we have plenty of bio-mass.

Even with all the big corporations coming to the GHG negotiation table, like Exxon, Alcoa, .etc, we still need to keep watch as they try to influence how carbon management is legislated in the USA. Carbon must have a fair price, that fair price and the changes in the view of how the soil carbon cycle now can be used as a massive sink verses it now being viewed as a wash, will be of particular value to farmers and a global cool breath of fresh air for us all.

If you have any other questions please feel free to call me or visit the TP web site at REPP-CREST I've been drafted to administer. Terra Preta | Intentional use of charcoal in soil
It has been immensely gratifying to see all the major players join the mail list , Cornell folks, T. Beer of Kings Ford Charcoal (Clorox), Novozyne the M-Roots guys(fungus), chemical engineers, Dr. Danny Day of G. I. T. , Dr. Antal of U. of H., Virginia Tech folks and probably many others who's back round I don't know have joined.


Here is my current Terra Preta posting which condenses the most important stories and links;


Terra Preta Soils Technology To Master the Carbon Cycle;
(you all have seen my post before , so I'll spare you)

Also;

My brother, Laird A. Knight, this week was lobbing for his issues of bicycle lanes & trails and stopped by Sen. Byrd's and Sen. Rockefeller's offices and said they were left slack-jawed after he presented them with the TP technology.

So all of you get busy, call ,write and email your representatives and senators, maybe we can create a critical mass of Terra Preta discussion on Capital Hill!

Erich J. Knight
Shenandoah Gardens
E-mail: shengar at aol.com
(540) 289-9750