"Wee Beasties" and other "Critters" in TP

[Ahmabeliever]

Hey! Just a short note to say thanks for all the interesting posts on this thread. I rarely get a chance to reply, but I've enjoyed hours of imaginary conversations, musings, and possible replies based on your posts. Especially Michaelangelica and Ahmabeliever, thanks (though I'm jealous of Ahma because you beat me to key insights and points all too often); I'm glad you take the time to share your inspirations.

I'm flattered, but I'm just connecting the dots. Praise belongs with those who supplied the dots for me to connect. I am glad we have inspired your thinking

Michaelangelica has done an exemplary job of providing both data and food for thought to consume. As have many other forumers. I feel humbled amongst the minds here but wont be put off due to my own insecurities, the subject matter deserves a lot of attention. Isn't the internet the most amazing tool! Where I with no real education to speak of can learn about anything I desire. The internet in my opinion is an integral part of the equation for solving many of the planets problems.

Anyone, anywhere, can excel in any educational discipline. This could very well be our saving grace, with the chances of the right minds meeting (packets of data exchanged) increasing exponentially.

I can't believe that for years I've been trashing the used charcoal from my fishtank filters.
Used, activated charcoal is probably just the same as low-temp (unactivated), bio-oil enriched, charcoal. Thanks for the insight!
From now on, it's going into the garden!

Could use them to help innoculate compost tea if you brew them as well.

My 'fishwater' is superior. I have both terrestrial and aquatic conditions in the system. Most aquatic plants have no m.fungi symbiosis and terrestrial fungi present are merely varieties that decay leaf and wood matter. Aquaponic water has m.fungi present in an established system.

[Ahmabeliever]

There remain questions for me. Here's one, and my postulationising on it. (tis so a word)

Do the charcoal and pottery environments promote anaerobic pockets which in turn process sulfur?

I believe as bacterial communities build up a film of themselves inside materials like charcoal and pottery, there will come a stage where there is a glut of bacteria effectively sealing air out from portions of clay and charcoal, and anaerobic conditions will be met.

Between the anaerobic and aerobic areas will be a community of bacteria capable of switching from aerobic to anaerobic states as neccesary.

This is where we'd find a 'sulfur cycle'.

To paraphrase another

"Some bacteria reduce sulfate (anaerobic), while others (aerobic) oxidize sulfide. They pass sulfur back and forth between sulfate and sulfide states, at times excreting a little elemental sulfur."

Very beneficial garden function.

[freeztar]

Originally Posted by Ahmabeliever

There remain questions for me. Here's one, and my postulationising on it. (tis so a word)

Do the charcoal and pottery environments promote anaerobic pockets which in turn process sulfur?

I believe as bacterial communities build up a film of themselves inside materials like charcoal and pottery, there will come a stage where there is a glut of bacteria effectively sealing air out from portions of clay and charcoal, and anaerobic conditions will be met.

Between the anaerobic and aerobic areas will be a community of bacteria capable of switching from aerobic to anaerobic states as neccesary.

This is where we'd find a 'sulfur cycle'.

To paraphrase another

"Some bacteria reduce sulfate (anaerobic), while others (aerobic) oxidize sulfide. They pass sulfur back and forth between sulfate and sulfide states, at times excreting a little elemental sulfur."

Very beneficial garden function.

Interesting thoughts Ahma.

I wonder if this is what is responsible for the acidifying effects often seen from adding char to the soil?

[Ahmabeliever]

Originally Posted by freeztar

Interesting thoughts Ahma.

I wonder if this is what is responsible for the acidifying effects often seen from adding char to the soil?

Can't be certain, but I think the observed reduction in soil nitrogen causes this.

I think this reduction in nitrogen is due to the 'attraction' of nutrients to the rapidly forming bacteria on the charcoal.

It becomes snacks. The nitrogen's in the nutrient cycle, albeit misplaced.

From what I recall these tests were in poor soils?

A poor soil is a poor soil and though char amendment might help, the soil also needs food for the bacteria and fungi to establish.

When I 'make' soil of any composition, I prefer to leave it at least a month before I plant in it, to 'mature' a bit. Often in this period I'll add some alfalfa or peas to sprout into it. Nitrogen fixers. These I till in to the top few inches when I plant proper. After reading taildragerdrivers post concerning alfalfa in a TP patch and stuff concerning the 'nitrogen strip' associated with char I've been adding alfalfa to all new TP mixes.

[Michaelangelica]

Soil organisms help ranchers

transect points: Soil organisms help ranchers

[nutronjon]

I am shamefully ignorant of science. This thread me wonder if charcoal would make a garden more prone to contaminating food with E. coli. I found the following the explanation, but don't enough to understand it. I get there are different E. coli and that they are not all bad, our community garden is off a bike path where people walk their dogs and they do not always clean up what a dog leaves behind. I have heard this can spread the harmful E. coli. Is there a need for concern, and would charcoal increase the hazzard?

Adsorption effect of activated charcoal on enteroh...[J Vet Med Sci. 2001] - PubMed Result
Adsorption effect of activated charcoal on enterohemorrhagic Escherichia coli.
Naka K, Watarai S, Tana , Inoue K, Kodama Y, Oguma K, Yasuda T, Kodama H.
Department of Cell Chemistry, Institute of Cellular and Molecular Biology, Okayama University Medical School, Japan.

The adsorption property of activated charcoal on verotoxin (VT)-producing Escherichia coli (VTEC) was examined using E. coli O157:H7. In the present study, E. coli O157:H7 strains were effectively adsorbed by activated charcoal. Adsorption was dose-dependent, and the maximum adsorption occurred within 5 min. At 10 mg of activated charcoal, bacteria tested were completely adsorbed. Activated charcoal also had the capacity to adsorb toxin (verotoxin 2) activity from the bacterial extract. Furthermore, the adsorption efficiency of activated charcoal for the normal bacterial flora in the intestine was assessed using Enterococcus faecium, Bifidobacterium thermophilum, and Lactobacillus acidophilus. Activated charcoal showed lower binding capacity to the normal bacterial flora tested than that to E. coli O157:H7 strains. These results suggest that activated charcoal could be a good adsorbent system for the removal of VTEC and verotoxin.

PMID: 11307928 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[Ahmabeliever]

I have never read of a single instance of e-coli contamination through actual plant material, but what is splashed on the plant is a different matter. Or the chopping board, bench, plate, surface....

Dogs and cats in veg plots are a PITA. Clean your veg really well.

Fecal matter invariably becomes composted. Fecal matter is a possible contaminant in any garden that animals can access. And then the insects fecal matter, the bacteria's wastes...

The example you used shows the potential of charcoal in humans to remove e.coli.

Charcoal could be viewed as beneficial to soil in this regard as well. It will not only soak up the bacteria, they will be recycled as something else, stuck in the carbon with no host they'll die and become potential nutrients.

Hope that helped clear up some things.

[Michaelangelica]

A very tecnical, long paper but a bit of a worry as far as the poor Wee Beasties go.
the Glyphosate threat 1

Monsanto was not the only one who researched this issue. Research on glyphosate effects on soil microorganisms (lasting 214 days or almost 7 months), found that stimulation and inhibition occurred depending on glyphosate concentrations (69). Also, research with two soils treated with glyphosate found that glyphosate inhibited microorganisms, but also that some adaptation to glyphosate occurred (65).

Soil carefully treated with glyphosate remains of course an artificial thing. But what about glyphosate that is leaked from plant roots? Grossbard pointed out in 1985 that there was a great gap in our knowledge on the response of soil microorganisms to glyphosate exuded from roots (72). This ignorance persists.

Laboratory research without soil found that 50 ppm (parts per million) glyphosate reduced bacterial growth by 73%, fungal growth by 91% and actinomycetes' growth by 94% (66). This last category are bacteria with some characteristics of fungi. So, a clear limit was found to glyphosate tolerance in microorganisms (from arable land). The absence of soil in this research was criticised (67).

A similar research was done with five identified mycorrhizas. Here, a glyphosate concentration of 50 ppm and more led to significant reductions in growth (71). In addition it became clear that each mycorrhiza had its own individual glyphosate tolerance, just like plants. The absence of soil in this research reflected reality as mycorrhizas hook directly into plant roots and get glyphosate full strength from the plant's phloem flow.

Research on Rhizobium bacteria in shake flask culture without soil, suggested that the ability to degrade glyphosate could be widespread among Rhizobium bacteria. Here too, an upper glyphosate limit was found above which bacterial growth was inhibited (70). What amazed these researchers was that by 1991 so few glyphosate-degrading bacteria had been isolated.

the Glyphosate threat 1

[Michaelangelica]

Originally Posted by nutronjon

I am shamefully ignorant of science. This thread me wonder if charcoal would make a garden more prone to contaminating food with E. coli. I found the following the explanation, but don't enough to understand it. I get there are different E. coli and that they are not all bad, our community garden is off a bike path where people walk their dogs and they do not always clean up what a dog leaves behind. I have heard this can spread the harmful E. coli. Is there a need for concern, and would charcoal increase the hazzard?

I am sorry I missed your post
The study looks like they are using activated charcoal to purify something (water?)
Activated Charcoal is used in a lot of filters to purify various substances.
It is usually too expensive to use as a soil additive except where there are chemical spills etc.

I doubt if that sort of research would carry over to the local park; but many these days recommend using gloves when touching soil and potting mixes. (Also picking up your dog poo-the ubiquitous plastic bag is good for this)

I have been using my hands in soil and literally tonnes of potting mix (I owned a small nursery) for 45 years and I ain't dead yet.
PS
Lots of crops use manures with E coli

Persistence of Escherichia coli and Salmonella in surface soil following application of liquid hog manure for production of pickling cucumbers.
The estimated average time required to reach undetectable concentrations of E. coli in sandy loam varied from 56 to 70 days, whereas the absence of E. coli was estimated at 77 days in loamy sand.
The maximal Salmonella persistence in soil was 54 days. E. coli and Salmonella were not detected in any vegetable samples

.
Persistence of Escherichia coli and Salmonella in ...[J Food Prot. 2005] - PubMed Result

[maikeru]

I want to draw attention to soil mites, who are not very pretty when you look at them with a magnifying class or microscope, but important for soil health and nutrient recycling, and therefore worthy of our love and praise:

Oribatida - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Mite Lab
Soil biodiversity under different land uses in New York State
Soil Arthropods | NRCS SQ
Soilhealth.com - Soil Organic Matter

Some important things these little mites do around the clock:

1. Help regulate microbial flora, types, and diversity by grazing. Some feed on fungus, some on blue-green algae, others on bacteria. Predatory soil mites also feed on other kinds of mites.

2. Eat a lot of detritus, tough woody stuff (cellulose and lignin), or remains (or each other), and poop that stuff out. This helps to speed up nutrient cycling a lot. Think of cows in the pasture...only under the soil. These nutrients then become much more available to plants and microbes.

3. Good indicator of overall soil health. Finding lots of beneficial, long-lived, and diverse species of soil mites is a sign that the soil is healthy and rich in organic matter and has been relatively undisturbed.

4. Provide more competition and control for annoying pests like fungus gnats that may feed on the same food sources as the mites or attack plants. This comes back to the principle that the richer and more diverse your soil ecosystem, the less likely you are to have problems with pests and disease. A rich environment without controls or skewed ecosystem is a disaster just waiting. Think of Australia and its problems with introduced rabbits, mice, and foxes...

I've had problems with fungus gnats in the past, with them growing to plague proportions in a short time in terra preta, where they have an abundance of nutrients, space, and little or no competition. I've noticed they seem to do less well in pots inoculated with soil mites. I assume the difference in colonization and success results from the competition for food and space. I'd rather that the mites win over the fungus gnats. Fungus gnats tend to deplete the soil of nutrients, because they breed so fast, so numerously, attack plant roots, and die away from the soil (which means the nutrients they stole will not be returned). These mess up terra preta and the soil ecosystem, and plants will show slowed or stunted growth in pots infested with fungus gnats. The soil mites, on the other hand, will live forever in your pot or garden plot and work to keep nutrients there.

Support your local, beneficial soil mites!