The clay shards and pottery in TP What & Why?

[Ahmabeliever]

Just a wee note. I don't know if it's the clay shards (smashed terra cotta pot) or the bones (smashed chicken lamb and beef) but...

I added roughly 3% smashed pottery and 3% smashed bones to one mix. The TP mix including the bones and pottery is outperforming the other TP mixes without the bones and pottery by roughly 100%.

[Essay]

Originally Posted by Ahmabeliever

Just a wee note. I don't know if it's the clay shards (smashed terra cotta pot) or the bones (smashed chicken lamb and beef) but...

I added roughly 3% smashed pottery and 3% smashed bones to one mix. The TP mix including the bones and pottery is outperforming the other TP mixes without the bones and pottery by roughly 100%.

I'd think that the clay would be relatively inert (on this short time scale) except for drainage/aeration, physical (mulchy?) effects;
but the bones, are an obvious source of higher performance (especially if "activated" by the beasties)!

Thanks for the update!

[Fukudairafarm]

Originally Posted by Turtle

This sounds reasonable in general, however looking at the specific pots Mick posted with their decoration, it doesn't make much sense to me for them to have their use as retorts. Practically, decorating a pot you mean to break & bury is a waste of resources, in spite of the potential argument it served a ritual purpose. Follow the money.........

Oh, I agree- I don't think the pots in the picture would be the ones I was dreaming of. I think they would be plain and oddly shaped. The posted pot looks like it was to be used for other purposes.

[mavrickjohn]

One of he links I found on this site led me to some research that is being done in India. The web site said that they were charging the Charcoal with nitrogen using pee as a source. Got me to thinking and wondering if the creators of TP also used urine as a priming source for their charcoal. Where would you conduct this operation but in a pottery container if you were a Amazon Indian. I filled about a 1/3 of a quart jar with charcoal and then urinated in the jar checking each time looking for the order of ammonia. I've filled it twice and strained out the liquid residue left over so far the ammonia smell has been absorbed by the charcoal. When does this stuff finally load up. I'm starting the experiment all over with a measured amount of charcoal in a terra cotta pot with a cork plugging the hole. I'll measure the urine input until I smell the ammonia order. Basically I'm thinking they used many of those pots as chamber pots in their homes in the fields and other places where they conducted frequent activities. I wonder how many times a pot could be used until it would absorb enough urine till it could no longer be used for this function? I hope to get some answers with my experiment. I'll keep you posted but I think it will take some time.

[Essay]

Originally Posted by mavrickjohn

One of he links I found on this site led me to some research that is being done in India. The web site said that they were charging the Charcoal with nitrogen using pee as a source. Got me to thinking and wondering if the creators of TP also used urine as a priming source for their charcoal. Where would you conduct this operation but in a pottery container if you were a Amazon Indian. I filled about a 1/3 of a quart jar with charcoal and then urinated in the jar checking each time looking for the order of ammonia. I've filled it twice and strained out the liquid residue left over so far the ammonia smell has been absorbed by the charcoal. When does this stuff finally load up. I'm starting the experiment all over with a measured amount of charcoal in a terra cotta pot with a cork plugging the hole. I'll measure the urine input until I smell the ammonia order. Basically I'm thinking they used many of those pots as chamber pots in their homes in the fields and other places where they conducted frequent activities. I wonder how many times a pot could be used until it would absorb enough urine till it could no longer be used for this function? I hope to get some answers with my experiment. I'll keep you posted but I think it will take some time.

Does this strike others as that rare sort of "Aha moment!" we enjoy so much?

It does me! I have tears in my eyes from laughing; but also....
For this great insight [imho] into the anthropological and chem./biochemical aspects of this TP mystery: Thanks!

Keep us posted on the stream ...of information!

~

[mavrickjohn]

Ahmabeliever have you duplicated your experiment using Bio-char + bones only and Bio-char + clay and if so what are the results? Another question I have were the clay shards mixed in the soil or placed on top of the soil as a mulch? Now we may have to be making our own clay pots!.

[mavrickjohn]

I went to Wikipedia to read up on Terra Cotta. When I finished digesting that information I looked up clay and found a note that seemed very interesting and followed that. There they were using iron rich clay minerals that had been used to treat Buruli ulcer patients to see if they had antibacterial properties. AsAgO2 did have pathogenic properties against bacteria and antibiotic resistant bacteria. I wonder if these properties would have worked in the soil and could be one of the reasons clay shards were incorporated in TP. I tend to think that TP was created with Humanure because of the lack of nutrients in the tropics. Perhaps the use of the clay shards helped to control soil pathogens from the human manure if it was not properly composted or poorly composted?

Broad-spectrum in vitro antibacterial activities of clay minerals against antibiotic-susceptible and antibiotic-resistant bacterial pathogens -- Haydel et al. 61 (2): 353 -- Journal of Antimicrobial Chemotherapy

[Essay]

Originally Posted by mavrickjohn

I tend to think that TP was created with Humanure because of the lack of nutrients in the tropics.

...and that same logic can be used to advocate for de-desertification in areas with marginal soils!
Great links. Thanks again:
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I assume Ag means silver in this case:

Broad-spectrum in vitro antibacterial activities of clay minerals against antibiotic-susceptible and antibiotic-resistant bacterial pathogens -- Haydel et al. 61 (2): 353 -- Journal of Antimicrobial Chemotherapy
Results: One specific mineral, CsAg02, demonstrated bactericidal activity against pathogenic Escherichia coli, ... methicillin-resistant S. aureus (MRSA) ...and Mycobacterium smegmatis....

MRSA!
Hey! That's good news to spread around...

...and those other drug-resistant and common human strains too!
...and for folks with foreskins that last one would be relevant....

and speaking of Mycobacteria

Originally Posted by John Innes Centre

The mycobacteria are unusual among bacteria in that they have an enormously thick, hydrophobic cell wall that prevents desiccation. Many mycobacteria are harmless and useful because they degrade organic matter in soil. Some are used industrially to help convert cheap plant sterols (sitosterol) into useful steroid hormones. ....

...hmmm, back to soil health:

googled: nano-silver

Synergistic antibacterial effects of beta-lactam antibiotic combined with silver nanoparticles
Informa Pharmaceutical Science - Expert Opinion on Therapeutic Patents - 15(2):125 - Summary

googled: nano-silver toxicity

Size Dependent and Reactive Oxygen Species Related Nanosilver Toxicity to Nitrifying Bacteria - Environmental Science & Technology (ACS Publications)
"The intrinsic slow growth of nitrifying bacteria and their high sensitivity to environmental perturbations often result in cell growth inhibition by toxicants. Nanoparticles are of great concern to the environment because of their small size and high catalytic properties."
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Perhaps in "clay chamber pots" a high-silver clay would prevent biofilms from developing, but I'd think in the soil that it wouldn't inhibit too much activity, except on a very small scale or for certain (possibly many, but not all) microbes.

It's probably much wiser to have your silver bound up in shards, rather than having it dispersed in a dusting of nanoparticles, eh?
~

[dikken]

Interesting thoughts about the possible effects of the pottery adjuncts in the soil on diseases, especially the effect on the ammonia in urine. The effect of excess humanure in tropical climates usually results in nasty diseases such as cholera and diphtheria which can, and has, killed many people.

I wonder if the combined use of charcoal, pottery, and whatever other stuff help sterilize,or offset, the use of human excrement.

dikken

[Essay]

Originally Posted by dikken

Interesting thoughts about the possible effects of the pottery adjuncts in the soil on diseases, especially the effect on the ammonia in urine. The effect of excess humanure in tropical climates usually results in nasty diseases such as cholera and diphtheria which can, and has, killed many people.

I wonder if the combined use of charcoal, pottery, and whatever other stuff help sterilize,or offset, the use of human excrement.

dikken

Yes, an important consideration!

Amazon.com: The Big Necessity: The Unmentionable...
Amazon.com: The Big Necessity: The Unmentionable...

The Big Necessity: The Unmentionable World of Human Waste and Why It Matters

...talks about how 40% of the world's population has no bucket ...or better,
and how disease from unmanaged human waste kills more than any other cause,
and how modern sanitation "has added 20 years to the average human life."
& "90 percent of the globe’s sewage ends up untreated in oceans, rivers and lakes."
quotes from: Scientific American Reviews: Scroll down past "...the Great Pyramid:" review
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Hey! Dikken: Welcome to the HyperOgraphy! Enjoy....

~