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Old 01-04-2009   #21 (permalink)
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Smile Re: The clay shards and pottery in TP What & Why?

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Originally Posted by mavrickjohn View Post
One of he links I found on this site led me to some research that is being done in India. The web site said that they were charging the Charcoal with nitrogen using pee as a source. Got me to thinking and wondering if the creators of TP also used urine as a priming source for their charcoal. Where would you conduct this operation but in a pottery container if you were a Amazon Indian. I filled about a 1/3 of a quart jar with charcoal and then urinated in the jar checking each time looking for the order of ammonia. I've filled it twice and strained out the liquid residue left over so far the ammonia smell has been absorbed by the charcoal. When does this stuff finally load up. I'm starting the experiment all over with a measured amount of charcoal in a terra cotta pot with a cork plugging the hole. I'll measure the urine input until I smell the ammonia order. Basically I'm thinking they used many of those pots as chamber pots in their homes in the fields and other places where they conducted frequent activities. I wonder how many times a pot could be used until it would absorb enough urine till it could no longer be used for this function? I hope to get some answers with my experiment. I'll keep you posted but I think it will take some time.
Interesting post. Let us all know what happens. It may take awhile?

I am one of the few who believes the clay is important in TP soils
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Old 01-04-2009   #22 (permalink)
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Smile Re: The clay shards and pottery in TP What & Why?

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Originally Posted by Essay View Post
Yes, an important consideration!

Amazon.com: The Big Necessity: The Unmentionable World of Human Waste and Why It Matters: Rose George: Books
The Big Necessity: The Unmentionable World of Human Waste and Why It Matters

...talks about how 40% of the world's population has no bucket ...or better,
and how disease from unmanaged human waste kills more than any other cause,
and how modern sanitation "has added 20 years to the average human life."
& "90 percent of the globe’s sewage ends up untreated in oceans, rivers and lakes."
quotes from: Scientific American Reviews: Scroll down past "...the Great Pyramid:" review
===

Hey! Dikken: Welcome to the HyperOgraphy! Enjoy....

~
A bloody awful situation

I read recently that the reason China has such a large population now is Tea.
2,000 years ago Chinese drank boiled water for their tea; while Europeans were popping off with all sorts of water-borne diseases.
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Old 01-31-2009   #23 (permalink)
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Re: The clay shards and pottery in TP What & Why?

Hello, I've been lurking here for a while.

On the container gardening forum at Gardenweb, there are many threads about soilless container mixes using a calcined clay product called "Turface". It has a high CEC ratio and a size and irregular shape that promotes both good drainage and good moisture retention to make an ideal container medium. Roots like to grow in the interface between air and water, so a highly porous medium supports root growth better than a compacted medium. I've never been much of a container gardener, but I've been impressed with what I've tried so far. It seems to me that Turface or one of several similar products would be an interesting addition to some of the charcoal and terra preta experiments.

I live in southern California so I buy a product called "Dry Stall Horse Bedding" which is quite similar although locally produced. I'm going to try adding it to my raised vegetable beds this spring.

Anyway, I just thought that I would throw that out there for consideration. I'm not able to post a link, but look for the "Water Movement and Retention" threads to start.
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Old 02-03-2009   #24 (permalink)
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Re: The clay shards and pottery in TP What & Why?

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I buy a product called "Dry Stall Horse Bedding" which is quite similar although locally produced. I'm going to try adding it to my raised vegetable beds this spring.
...similar to what--the Turface?
===

Hi, J Bean.... Welcome & ...looking forward to the water percolation links.

The carbon sequestring properties of TP are what interest me about this side of soil science, but these soil-free high-tech materials may find a use too.

~
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Old 02-03-2009   #25 (permalink)
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Re: The clay shards and pottery in TP What & Why?

Re:
http://hypography.com/forums/terra-p...ot-sherds.html
...and welcome Gaudencio....
Quote:
Originally Posted by gaudencio
However it was built, one thing was clear in my head after seeing that picture and the documentary last night: the terracotta was laid flat, in layers, intentionally. So why? Well, it's plausible it does nothing, despite being laid on purpose. Equally, the other theory I read about is possible, that it harbours certain micro organisms. However, I think it more likely that the intent and the effect was mechanical. This is where it gets a bit hypothetical, since I'm no soil scientist, but the obvious problem with soils in areas of extreme weather (including my own soil) is that when it rains all the nutrients get flushed straight out. As is well established, the charcoal counteracts this on a chemical and biological level. I think that the pot sherds may counteract it on a mechanical level.
I'm with you on the mulch effect. It seems obvious that the shards protects the soil, as you say, mechanically.
===

But I don't know about how the layers are constructed. I would think slowly over the years and not all at once.
I've always pictured a surface almost completely covered, like paving, with a mosaic of shards. It'd also make it possible to encourage the drainage to run nearer to the base of plants, before soaking in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gaudencio
Even if they used no-till agriculture, I find it hard to believe that over the course of a growing season - after cropping and 6 months worth of general movement - it could remain flat.
But they'd be walking around on these all thru the growing season, pushing them flat into the soil... and any sharp points or curves sticking up would be broken off--to create a walkable surface.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gaudencio
Moreover, it seems obvious that the top layer in that photo HAS been tilled, due to the random angles of the pieces.
Maybe this recent activity was not in keeping with the traditional way of tending those "mounds." These days don't the locals harvest the TP, rather than grow stuff on it?
===

But I think the prevention of leaching is the most important function of the shards in that harsh driving-rain environment.

hmmm...
Imagining an old, post-harvest, "paved" mound... I'm wondering if all the season's waste biomass (combined with village wastes) might be burned in place, over the old paving.

The old "paving" might protect the soil underneath from sterilization.

The burning pile above would probably just be smoldering ...to produce the char.
Could even have been new shards (and dirt) covering the burning biomass to help maintain a smoldering level.
Could possibly have put clay sheets over the burning biomass, to encourage a smolder (turning the clay into large pottery "lids"). These could later be broken into mulch as the charred mass was crushed down, covering the old layer of shards.

Wet clay sheets... (hmmm)... could be not much more than a clay paste, painted thickly on large leaves--and then layered on top of a burning pile of bio-detritus and human wastes... to encourage smoldering and charring.

~
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Old 02-03-2009   #26 (permalink)
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Re: The clay shards and pottery in TP What & Why?

Originally Posted by gaudencio
>>Moreover, it seems obvious that the top layer in that photo HAS been tilled, due to the random angles of the pieces.
>Maybe this recent activity was not in keeping with the traditional way of tending those "mounds." These days don't the locals harvest the TP, rather than grow stuff on it?
Agreed - I actually deleted a sentence where I wrote exactly that because it confused the message I was trying to get across, and I was worried it was sounding a bit incoherent anyway
===

>But I think the prevention of leaching is the most important function of the shards in that harsh driving-rain environment.
Is there any kind of consensus on this? Have any experiments been done?

As for the theory about using the sherds/shards as a mulch, it's convincing, but there are a few issues. Firstly, for mulch to be effective it would have to be a complete covering - as you said, a kind of pot-sherd pavement. This is not what's shown in the photo; there is not a succession of dense, evenly spaced layers. There is only one dense "base" layer (with a few intriguing little shards underneath it which we'll ignore for now). Of course, it's possible they also used organic material with the sherds, but it seems unlikely to me.
Secondly, if I understand correctly, the charcoal and organic content are only a fairly small (if prominent) part of the soil. The rest is actual soil - identical to other soil in the area. If they were simply piling organic material, charcoal and potshards in successive layers, the soil would not contain soil - if you catch my meaning. Of course, over time the beasties would certainly mix it all up, but I find it hard to imagine they would do so to such an extent. What I'm trying to say is that they must have been piling soil on top as the layers progressed - whether it was all done in one go, or over a period of years. If we agree on this, then where would they have got the soil from if the ground were covered in sherds? It's not feasible that they farmed it from the surrounding area for all sorts of reasons.
Finally, as an (admittedly poor) amateur gardener, I find the prospect of direct sowing of seed into the proposed top layer rather unlikely. For the scenario which you suggest to be true, they would be sowing seed into a mix of sterile charcoal and bits of old pot, which I don't think would be conducive to good growth, though I may be mistaken on that since I've never tried.

I do still tend toward the idea that they built the soil as it is pretty much from scratch. Another good reason for this that's just occurred is that the original soil is so poor that during the early years they would not have been able to support the kind of size of population we suspect they did. I'm inclined to think terra preta only becomes that fertile when it reaches such a large depth. Therefore, we're left with the idea of people going out from one village and "colonising" another area by turning barren soil into terra preta. They could have gone out, a few men, subsisting on native vegetation and wild animals, and spent a year or two preparing the earth in the way I've suggested: digging down, laying the charcoal and the pot sherds loosely in layers. Though I admit this is my imagination running away with itself, and the idea of a natural evolution of the land over time is certainly more in keeping with "peasant" methods. If nothing else, it seems unlikely they would have transported the enormous amounts of pot sherds required rather than making them on site - and if they were made on site solely to dig in the earth, they wouldn't have been decorated. By the way, I think the fact that they are decorated precludes your idea of a "clay paste" spread over the burning organic matter.

OK....time for a breather. Sorry if that seems a little incomprehensible. This terra preta mystery has the potential to set off all sorts of ideas. And yes, any moderator who chooses to can incorporate the thread I started into this one if they want.

Gaudencio
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Old 02-03-2009   #27 (permalink)
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Re: The clay shards and pottery in TP What & Why?

another thought that's just occurred while lying in bed - in your proposed system of build up over many years, it would have been impossible to cultivate trees because, among other problems, they would likely get root rot due to all the extra material piled up around the base (unless they were initially planted on enormous mounds, which seems unlikely).
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Old 02-03-2009   #28 (permalink)
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Re: The clay shards and pottery in TP What & Why?

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Originally Posted by gaudencio View Post
another thought that's just occurred while lying in bed - in your proposed system of build up over many years, it would have been impossible to cultivate trees because, among other problems, they would likely get root rot due to all the extra material piled up around the base (unless they were initially planted on enormous mounds, which seems unlikely).
Yep, all very good points, counter-points, and qualifications....

I had thought about the problem of "sinking" trees too, ...and the decorations on the pots (reminding me of the "chamber pot" theory above -post #14-).

I recall in 1491 they mention what a large volume of pottery (and associated labor and resources) they found in the TP.
But I've never heard about if there were corners, necks, lips, handles, etc., or if it's all just large flat (or slightly concave) pieces.

It is fun to travel back in time and try to see what these folks were doing... and we don't even know if it was designed or accidental--a midden/trash heap, or a compost pile/worm farm as a source for fertilizer, or a stable source of arable land.

Last edited by Essay; 02-03-2009 at 03:06 PM..
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Old 06-13-2009   #29 (permalink)
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Re: The clay shards and pottery in TP What & Why?



I have my own theory about the invention of Terra Preta.

Once upon a time there was a young genius who was tired of eating raw fish, and was tired of being cold and wet...


It rains a lot in the Amazon during the rainy season.

Hoard wood in your hut if you like: you'll run out long before the rain passes.

With every bit of burnable wood soaked, folks eventually ended up eating their fish and veggies raw, until the rains ended and the fuel supply dried out.

Now, pottery kilns had been invented long before. The first kilns were probably hollow logs.

Set the pottery in the hollow, set the log on fire and you get a fairly even heat. When the log is burnt away, you have your fired pottery.

Someone no doubt invented a shortcut, MAKING a hollow "log".

They built a large basket from green reeds, and set it over a firepit. They put the pottery inside, coated the basket with clay and kept the fire going until the basket self-destructed.

The bits left over from the basket would be charcoal by then...

And it's not a leap to assume that people would know that charcoal makes a good fire, if you only have enough of it.


So our young genius already knew how to make a kiln, and knew that charcoal would be valuable.

So he invented a kiln to do just one thing: to make charcoal.

He built a stack of wood, and covered it with green reeds. He slathered the reeds with clay, leaving a hole at the top and a hole at the side.

He lit the stack on fire through the side hole and watched. The fire climbed up through the stack, hardening the clay as it baked the water out of it.

Finally the color of the smoke changed from yellow to blue. He blocked up the holes and waited.

Eventually the kiln cooled. He broke it open with a stone and voila´! It was full of charcoal.

He then realized one thing: he was going to be rich.

He built more kilns, refining the technique as he learned. Finally, the rainy season returned.

He broke open a kiln and started selling charcoal, trading for fish and fruit.

His idea was a smashing success !

People came from all around, to buy charcoal so they could have a cooked meal.

Franchises popped up everywhere, of course.

Not all of the charcoal was salable, though.

When large pieces were broken up for sale, some little chunks and charcoal dust fell to the ground, mixing with the broken pottery shards everywhere.

Traffic ground this detritus into the soil. Our genius left it there: it's not as if anyone would pay for little bits and powdered charcoal anyway.

Eventually, though, our entrepreneur had a problem. He'd used up all the available wood in the area.

Los Indios didn't have metal tools to chop down trees, saws to cut them up, nor the horsepower to drag the trees very far.

It was easier to move his operation to a new source of wood and transport the lightweight charcoal to his customers.

His fire-pit was abandoned. It became used as a rubbish tip and soon was overflowing with garbage, fish bones, manure, etc.

The garbage became compost, and turned into organic mulch.

Earthworms came along, and slurped up the mulch to get at the bacteria living in it. They actually ATE the charcoal powder in doing do and ... spread it around as they moved on.

Eventually someone planted a garden there. It was an old trick, and always got a couple of years of good harvests... until the rains washed the nutrients away.


So it was nothing new. Until the plants in the new patch took off like skyrockets ! Year after year, the harvests were amazing. And the harvests didn't fail, as they always had.

It must have been like magic to Los Indios.

The thin clay in the Amazon is poor soil, even weeds don't grow well.

But the invention of Terra Preta changed all that.

The new soil had different cation exchange rates, moisture retention abilities, and rather than vital nutrients being washed away by the rains, the biochar retained them.

The soil bacteria had colonized the voids in the charcoal, just as the ancestor to our DNA molecule may have colonized the layers between mica in watery environments in the primordial oceans.

That soil bacteria helped maintain the fertility, by breaking down minerals trapped in the soil into forms plants can use. Silica, calcium, and iron.


Other people tried to copy the success of that first patch. Maybe some succeeded; maybe not, if their charcoal wasn't "inoculated".

Until someone snuck into the first Terra Preta patch and stole some of the "magic" dirt.

They mixed this into their own fire-pit/garbage tip/garden patch soil and voila´!

It worked ! Hurray !

***************

So that's how it happened. Once people figured out how to repeat the process they went commercial with it.

Terra Mulatta is that commercial version: wood and weeds charred in the fields JUST before the rainy season, to prevent the fires from spreading, and to extinguish the biochar before it burned to ash.

But do the pottery shards in Terra Preta actually DO anything?

Probably not. The soil base is already clay: the pottery shards are just fired clay stained by woodsmoke.

Woodsmoke has been shown to stimulate some seed germination, but it would have washed away after a few years.

Unless someone does a controlled experiment and proves that soil fungi colonize the pottery shards, I'm guessing they're not necessary to Terra Preta Nova.
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Old 06-14-2009   #30 (permalink)
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Re: The clay shards and pottery in TP What & Why?

Dear List,
This dating technique sounds perfect to draw an exact time line of TP development.
At an accuracy of years we could see the speed at which the system built on itself once initiated.

Archaeological dating by re-firing ancient pots - physicsworld.com


Erich

Last edited by erich; 06-17-2009 at 11:53 PM..
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