Char Volumes

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Old 11-16-2007
Thinking

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Char Volumes

Dear Folks,

New to the group and wanted to introduce myself. Am interested to know if there is presently any recommended volumes per acre of application of char with given parameters.

Thanks for the opportunity. Been scanning all the back posts and find y'all
an informative group.

I am presently in my third year of soil prep for a 5 acre wine grape vineyard in NW Arkansas, USA. I have a good working knowledge of biodynamics, composting, biological sprays, covercrops and a cursury knowledge of earthworm cultivation.

In addition, I have had an avid interest in terra preta going back a couple of years and have a fairly huge resource of char (by my standards) locally that I am working to exploit for my soil building efforts.

Hope that I can add something to the group and that my offerings will be met with kind offerings in return.

Also wanted to thank Mr. Knightly (sp) for helping me source char in the central U.S. and invite Bernie of Green Waste to dialogue here.

Thanks and best wishes.

Spike
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Old 11-17-2007
Understanding

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Re: Char Volumes

Hi Spike,
As I recall the highest % of char in TP soils was 30%,

BestEnergy talked about rates of 250 tons per Ha, but they were proposing mixing it to 3 feet depth. (don't ask me how)

Here is my current "Rule of Thumb" thinking on application rate:

Char weighs about 15 Lb/ Cubic Ft
For a 20% by volume / Cu Ft of soil that equals 3 Lbs per square Ft, tilled in to 1 ft depth.

The Japanese found major reductions in N2O soil emmision and other benifits with top dressing even small amounts on Tea

Erich
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Old 11-17-2007
Thinking

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: NW Arkansas, USA
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Re: Char Volumes

Quote:
Originally Posted by erich View Post
Hi Spike,
As I recall the highest % of char in TP soils was 30%,

BestEnergy talked about rates of 250 tons per Ha, but they were proposing mixing it to 3 feet depth. (don't ask me how)

Here is my current "Rule of Thumb" thinking on application rate:

Char weighs about 15 Lb/ Cubic Ft
For a 20% by volume / Cu Ft of soil that equals 3 Lbs per square Ft, tilled in to 1 ft depth.

The Japanese found major reductions in N2O soil emmision and other benifits with top dressing even small amounts on Tea

Erich
Thanks Erich. Much appreciated.

Those are some pretty serious numbers. Even with your calculations that would mean that even at 3# cf/sq ft you are looking at 3 x 43,560 sq ft =
130,680 lbs or 65.34 T acre. Even at the going rate of $140 T that equals
$9147 an acre B4 delivery. Even if it were free (and no one is going to give away 65 T free) the experience in my neighborhood (25 mile radius) on delivered minerals is $300 for 20 T delivered, not spread. So now we are at over $1K just for delivery and application. I can see this already at $12,000 a ton, for an experiment. One can readily see that this is not a doable for any serious farmer or even one with throw away bucks. I don't even see the universities playing this route.

There may be some alternatives though, as you cited in the Japanese tea
scenario. (BTW ripping three feet may work in some areas. I've already
ripped 5 acres @ 2 feet and I can tell you it ain't pretty. I did it on the cheap and it still cost $1K acre and from my perspective it probably killed
whatever mychorrizal fungi and earthworms there were).

It would seem that if the object of the addition of the char were to bind nutrients and fungi to the char, then one would want to crush the char to as fine a particle as possible to increase the surface area of the char, no? Thus reducing the overall weight needed. (This, I surmise would also allow the earthworms to take it to lower depths, if taking it to lower depths is even necessary. It is my belief that feeder roots work on the top, so why take the char down? The nutrients that are in or applied to the soil are in the top
6 inches, no?

Another area that I have not seen explored or even talked about is applying char homeopathically (sp). I know it is in the thought processes of some, but no one is talking. Dead silence. It is going to happen and all the weight and volume talk will go away and you'll be able to spray char and the soil will benefit.

Best.

Frank
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Old 11-18-2007
Thinking

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Re: Char Volumes - thrifty cheeky trick

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spike Silverback View Post
Thanks Erich. Much appreciated.

Those are some pretty serious numbers.....

...It would seem that if the object of the addition of the char were to bind nutrients and fungi to the char, then one would want to crush the char to as fine a particle as possible to increase the surface area of the char, no? Thus reducing the overall weight needed. (This, I surmise would also allow the earthworms to take it to lower depths, if taking it to lower depths is even necessary. It is my belief that feeder roots work on the top, so why take the char down? The nutrients that are in or applied to the soil are in the top 6 inches, no?

Another area that I have not seen explored or even talked about is applying char homeopathically (sp). I know it is in the thought processes of some, but no one is talking. Dead silence. It is going to happen and all the weight and volume talk will go away and you'll be able to spray char and the soil will benefit.

Best.

Frank
Hi,
your idea of saving on charcoal is very good, and myself being tight fisted and lazy, I experimented with sweet char for terra preta.

Required volume of char is about one banana sized vertical shaft every 50 cm or two feet.

I described this in my introductory note:


Sweet char with hammer and chisel - 10-25-2007, 02:44 PM
Hi,
black earth or Schwarzerde in German has been used for millenia.

My theory especially about the Amazon variety is that charcoal was made in earth pits and after the regular inundations by the Amazon river mud crept into the char left in those pits, together with all sorts of bacteria and fungi from upstream the river, like the famous Nile mud in Egypt.

So the char captured the "magic" of the fertile várzea of the Amazon river. Our ancestors were keen observers, lacking books.

One crafty way of getting fungi and bacteria into the char is to offer them something sweet to eat: sugar!

Because a green plant will feed about half or more of the sugars it produces through photosynthesis to the little beasties in the soil, they will like that.

So the sugar only kick starts the processes in the soil "as if" the thriving plant supplied enough food to the soil life already, and the beasties and fungi in turn will supply the mineral salts and digestion products to the sugar supply factory, which a green plant actually is, seen from below.

Reports from Brazil state that a depth of at least 20 cm (8 inches) is required for terra preta to grow further.

I take from that that different levels of oxygen (lower partial pressure deeper down) are required for good performance.

Practical experiment with hammer and chisel:

Prepare sugar water in a bucket and soak charcoal in there for a day or two, until all water is inside the char.

Take a hammer and chisel (ten inches long) and drive a little hole 8 inches deep into the ground in the root zone of a plant you wish to foster.

Insert sweet char with a funnel or by hand.

Do this in spring time.

Wait and see. Compare with untreated plants nearby.

diazotrophicus (my (almost) first post)
...
Have to copy and paste, as posting links requires a few more posts by me to make up ten or so.
Use one or two "chisel holes" per plant filled with sweet char. It worked here in Germany (in a wine growing area).
diazotrophicus
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Old 11-28-2007
Rev Rev is offline
Thinking

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Re: Char Volumes

The flooding hypothesis sounds plausible

except teh terra preat sites ive read about are on terra firme
not the flooded areas

raised areas above rivers that are naturally infertile, but where char, fish bones and human excrement combine to make terra pretta

The rates ive read of here in Australia are 1kg/metre square

10 tonnes to the hectare of char
so 4 tonnes to the acre

of course you dont have to do it all in one go
and if its vines you want to grow then think of the disposal benefits of all those prunings, chipped and charred, in a prolysis unit or in a low cost earth mound

Last edited by Rev; 11-28-2007 at 05:58 AM.
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Old 11-29-2007
Thinking

Join Date: Oct 2007
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Re: Char Volumes and soil life

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev View Post
The flooding hypothesis sounds plausible

except teh terra preat sites ive read about are on terra firme
not the flooded areas

raised areas above rivers that are naturally infertile, but where char, fish bones and human excrement combine to make terra pretta

The rates ive read of here in Australia are 1kg/metre square

10 tonnes to the hectare of char
so 4 tonnes to the acre

of course you dont have to do it all in one go
and if its vines you want to grow then think of the disposal benefits of all those prunings, chipped and charred, in a prolysis unit or in a low cost earth mound
Hi,
of course the terra preta sites are on terra firme.

What I meant was possibly the discovery that charcoal pits in the várzea (flooded area) produced better plant growth at low water levels, so taking the mud plus charcoal to terra firme for use year round seems logical. If the mountain does not come to...
Anyway, a multitude of plants and inoculants might be the next best thing to build up something similar to the bounty of the Amazon microlife.
diazotrophicus
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Old 11-30-2007
Rev Rev is offline
Thinking

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Re: Char Volumes

love to read what youve read

can you supply docs or references to the above so i can read

its a good field to be an amateur in
as its clear already , of the many Dark earth sites over the amazon, there are man many ways to make a functional dark earth, not just one formula

which makes it easier for us to make terra preta nova as well

Last edited by Rev; 11-30-2007 at 06:13 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 11-30-2007
Thinking

Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 24
diazotrophicus is a jewel in the roughdiazotrophicus is a jewel in the roughdiazotrophicus is a jewel in the roughdiazotrophicus is a jewel in the rough
Re: Char Volumes - and quality bugs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev View Post
love to read what youve read

can you supply docs or references to the above so i can read

its a good field to be an amateur in
as its clear already , of the many Dark earth sites over the amazon, there are man many ways to make a functional dark earth, not just one formula

which makes it easier for us to make terra preta nova as well
Hi,
did some surfing on the google Brazil site, found a few rather new items.

One guy even supports my theory of the voluntary inoculation with wee bugs from other successful sites of terra preta.
Oil, be Seeing You: Origins of Amazonia's Terra Preta Soils

And some new findings
eCommons@Cornell: Item 1813/3465

For videos (slooow)
Fluxos*-*A Civilização da Terra Preta
and

Gerhard Bechtold: Terra Preta
Terra preta de Ã*ndio « Folha Verde
TERRA: Living Soil

this last link to Eprida in the US. They are doing something, which is better than just talk.

The centre pivot in Brasil is the Museu Goeldi right in Pará State, wit Dr. Dirse Kern up front
tpaindex

Hope you can read it all, but they are just trying, just like us.

But inoculants (from river silt) and a compost swap from neighbors a few miles away might be a good idea.
diazotrophicus
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Old 12-01-2007
Thinking

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Posts: 24
diazotrophicus is a jewel in the roughdiazotrophicus is a jewel in the roughdiazotrophicus is a jewel in the roughdiazotrophicus is a jewel in the rough
Re: Char Volumes - Inoculants and Ducks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev View Post
love to read what youve read

can you supply docs or references to the above so i can read

its a good field to be an amateur in
as its clear already , of the many Dark earth sites over the amazon, there are man many ways to make a functional dark earth, not just one formula

which makes it easier for us to make terra preta nova as well
Hi,
the web begins to knit itself. Just followed the link by Erich and there I found this
Microbial Fertilizers in Japan
about the effect of char on soil life, especially nitrogen fixation. In the references the name "Huruno" probably means Furuno, for Takao Furuno and his one duck revolution:
The Last Big Paddy - Rice Bowl Tales: Street Stories (ABC Radio National)
One Bird--Ten Thousand Treasures--How the Duck in the Paddy Fields Can Feed the World
WorldChanging: Tools, Models and Ideas for Building a Bright Green Future: Duck-Rice
diazotrophicus
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