Garden Soil

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[Ahmabeliever]

What a neat thread to find upon coming to visit hypography again.

I have read the myco highway thread and this now and enjoyed them both thanks Philip.

I think one problem you might be encountering is the elemental sulfur killing/knocking back fungi. I added gypsum unwittingly to some soil here (heavy clay loam) and was surprised months later doing a fungal test to find I had barely any in the soil in places. Then reading the compost tea list Elaine Ingham talks about sulfur killing fungus, and sulfur is in gypsum...

The toms don't seem to care, slow to start but they took off, the potatoes took off, and pepinos, all same family...

But these plants are all gross feeders, and I treat them better than other plants because of this, you know, LOTS of compost, buried deep, potatoes mounded up, all get mulched and watered regular.

They are the star performers, but gardeners (well me anyway) coddle them so results on how the tomatoes did are skewed hehe.

Char will greatly accelerate the biology in the soil. But what is the biology in the soil that is being accelerated? Is the correct biology present, or will you need to add it back to the soil to help the char as it sets up residence?

I'm waiting on some myco supplies from Paul Stamets company, for a few bucks I'll get to innoculate my composts worms and gardens with hordes of symbiotic life.

Then I can use my worm castings for castings teas, adding bacteria fungi protozoa and nematodes for pennies.

I'm in the middle of a city, so it needs the biology shipped in. Specially after my wee gypsum slip.

[Racoon]

Wow!

I just mix in a couple wheelbarrow loads full of compost, a bag of lime, and some spare dirt..

Mix it all up, and its been good to me.

Pull the weeds when they sprout.


Thats some pretty heavy soil calculation ..


I'm not sure thats necessary around here at least, but I live in the Willamette Valley where the dirt is good already..

[Philip Small]

I am in Spokane. All our good dirt ended up in the Willamette Valley thanks to some big floods that went through here a few centuries ago. Serial jokulhaups. Whatever, we miss our dirt.

Interesting on the S. I've always got a lot to learn, but speaking for myself, gypsum can come in pretty handy (clay soil with low Ca:Mg, for instance) and I would not reject using it based on a concern for added S harshing on the fungi. I suppose it depends on the rate and what the soil needs. Fungi are going to be adapted to a fairly substantial background S level in the soil because S is substantial component of the resident microbiology (proteins and such), and always cycling through the mineral fraction. In one study, gypsum improved fungi growth in saline and sodic soils (not the same, I know, but illustrates the underlying complexities).

In my soil my big related to fungi is the P now up at 53 ppm. That is like 5X more than is marginal, and fungi><plant symbiosis is greatly encouraged when soil P levels are marginal. Thus my highly enriched P level is working against my efforts to build a symbiotic community.

[Racoon]

Originally Posted by Philip Small

I am in Spokane. All our good dirt ended up in the Willamette Valley thanks to some big floods that went through here a few centuries ago. Serial jokulhaups. Whatever, we miss our dirt.

.

Nice to have another Washingtonian around. (I live in Vancouver)

I've made the mistake of using too much miracle grow in the past too.
Since then I use only minimal amounts once the flowers/vegetables start blooming.

You should consider adding Vermiculite/Perlite next year when developing your soil.
The vermiculite boosts the root structure once the roots start tapping into the air pockets of the vermiculite.

We get Western Washington Blight around here on tomatoes and peppers, and noticed once I started mixing in Lime and Vermiculite, the blight has dropped considerabley.

Some science stuff on vermiculite ---> Vermiculite: Vermiculite mineral information and data.

Horticultural Vermiculite has the excellent property of improving soil aeration while retaining the moisture and nutrients necessary to feed roots, cuttings, and seeds for faster growth. Like perlite, horticultural vermiculite is permanent, clean, odorless, nontoxic and sterile. It will not deteriorate, turn moldy or rot. The pH of vermiculite is essentially neutral (7.0-9.5) but owing to the presence of associated carbonate compounds, the reaction is normally alkaline. It also will vary (become more alkaline) with changes in processing techniques and time, and with the presence of moisture. The pH, color and chemical composition of vermiculite also will vary from mine to mine.

Vermiculite possesses cation exchange properties, thus it can hold and make available to the growing plant ammonium, potassium, calcium and magnesium. When mixed with peat, composted bark, organic compost, or natural soils, vermiculite like perlite helps promote faster root growth, and gives quick anchorage to young roots. These mixes help retain air, plant food, and moisture, and releases them as needed by the plant. Because vermiculite is very light and easy to handle, it easily mixes with soil, peat, composted pine bark and other composted organic materials, fertilizers, pesticides and herbicides. And when used as a carrier or bulking agent, it ensures more even distribution.

[JMJones0424]

I ran across this forum while searching for info on terra preta, so please excuse me for being a little late to the conversation. I have some remarks, then a question or two.

First: Peat moss has antimicrobial properties. In the past, before refrigeration, it was used to pack fresh produce for shipment as cushioning and also to help prevent spoilage. It is also used for bedding for animals. I recently found some shoe inserts with imbedded peat moss to prevent fungal growth. It is commonly used to start seedlings because it helps prevent fusarium wilt. I don't think it is the most appropriate bulking agent if your goal is to end up with terra preta. I think a more appropriate substitute would be finished compost or coco coir.

Second: I would never recommend adding ammonium sulfate or ammonium phosphate to a soil in which you are trying to stimulate microbial life, no matter your pH. Synthetic fertilizer salts like Miracle Grow have a devastating effect on soil life, and over time you will end up with a relatively sterile planting medium. Exactly the opposite of terra preta. Composted manures, rock powders, and organic meals (blood, bone, alfalfa, kelp, fish, etc.) should be the only fertilizers used if you are aiming for high levels of soil biology. They are readily available and it is easy to formulate an appropriate fertilizing regimen if you are used to working with NPK. Look at meals as quick release fertilizers, composts are slow release and add bio-available carbon content (biochar is not bio-available, if it were, it wouldn't persist in the soil), and rock powders are extremely slow release (3 to 5 years or more). If you use these fertilizers, you should never have any micro-nutrient deficiencies.

Third: I am not entirely sure on this one. Gypsum is an excellent way of adding calcium if your Ca:Mg ratio or Ca:N ratio is off, but your pH is 7 or higher. It also helps to bind clay particles into a more crumbly structure rather than a paste (obviously not necessary in your case). Elemental sulfur is anti-fungal, and therefor shouldn't be used, but I don't believe sulfates are (?).

Fourth: I do not believe your phosphorous levels are high enough to be causing the problems you describe... but I don't have an explanation for your problems either, so I may be wrong. My garden soil has tested as much as twice as high as yours without the problems you describe.

Fifth: Vermiculite is a soil amendment whose time has passed. It is too fragile and loses effectiveness over only a couple of years. There are other alternatives that are not as fragile, such as expanded shale, but as I understand it, one of the benefits of biochar is a high water retention, negating the need for vermiculite in the planting medium. It is however useful in maintaining moisture levels around small, slow to sprout seeds such as carrots.

Now, a question. I have a heavy silty clay soil that is very difficult to work with. The last thing I need is water retention or increased cation exchange capability, what I need is aeration. I have been experimenting with various different amendments in my garden (about 2000sf) for the past ten years, and have always just fallen back on high levels of compost and thick straw mulches to prevent compaction. I am considering incorporating biochar into twenty acres of grassland to help improve drainage. What size particles of charcoal did you use for your mix, and how well do they stay together over time (do they stay the same size, or do they tend to become pulverized). Sand added to my native soil produces a nice adobe brick, so I believe I would need a larger average particle size. Do you believe biochar could be an appropriate soil amendment in my case, or am I barking up the wrong tree?

Thank you for your help.

[Michaelangelica]

Originally Posted by JMJones0424

First: Peat moss has antimicrobial properties. In the past, before refrigeration, it was used to pack fresh produce for shipment as cushioning and also to help prevent spoilage. It is also used for bedding for animals. I recently found some shoe inserts with imbedded peat moss to prevent fungal growth. It is commonly used to start seedlings because it helps prevent fusarium wilt. I don't think it is the most appropriate bulking agent if your goal is to end up with terra preta. I think a more appropriate substitute would be finished compost or coco coir.

Miracle Grow have a devastating effect on soil life, and over time you will end up with a relatively sterile planting medium.

Now, a question. I have a heavy silty clay soil that is very difficult to work with. The last thing I need is water retention or increased cation exchange capability, what I need is aeration. I have been experimenting with various different amendments in my garden (about 2000sf) for the past ten years, and have always just fallen back on high levels of compost and thick straw mulches to prevent compaction. I am considering incorporating biochar into twenty acres of grassland to help improve drainage. What size particles of charcoal did you use for your mix, and how well do they stay together over time (do they stay the same size, or do they tend to become pulverized). Sand added to my native soil produces a nice adobe brick, so I believe I would need a larger average particle size. Do you believe biochar could be an appropriate soil amendment in my case, or am I barking up the wrong tree?

Thank you for your help.

Getting peat for home gardeners is a problem. in many areas of the world it is no longer allowed to be harvested for environmental reasons. But I just managed to get a bale from middle-Europe and use that for cuttings 50-50% with local sharp river sand. Cocopeat is not as good-I loose too many cuttings. I didn't know peat was anti-fungal.
I thought I might be adding some interesting Transylvanian "wee beasties' to my garden with it.

I do use Miracle Grow and osmocote in Pots as I feel it is such an artificial situation to start with. I use a very weak solution. Yes I have read that nitrogenous fertilisers kill the 'wee beasties' that make nitrogen. At least osmocote mimics the slow release pattern of natural soil fertiliser. i do use manures in Pots too- but you do have to be careful.
I usually put them at the bottom of the pot with my potting mix on top to initially insulate plant roots from touching too fresh manures. With big established pots I add it to the top as the potting mix disappears.

The best way to get a clay soil to break up is to use lots and lots of Gypsum. I had an area that used to puddle water and you could have made pottery out of the soil. It took about 12 months and about 250K of Gypsum but it worked.

Keep adding organic manures and blood and bone etc too. (Watch Blood and Bone- read the label- it often isn't. You are competing with the dog food companies)
A heavy mulch might feed the worms too- so their tunnels will aerate the soil. I am constantly amazed at how much organic matter and mulch soil can soak up.
The only free stuff I can get is sea weed and occasionally some cow manure.
a local chicken farm sells bags for $3 but lately there seems to be more and more sawdust in it.

O Vermiculite I like to grow my seeds in a 1/2" sandwich of vermiculite over seed raising or just potting mix. It is too expensive to use here as a soil amendment.
If you can get it cheap it has a very high CEC ratio and holds a heap of water. It is just a glorified bit of rock after all.

I tend to buy cheap potting mix and add my own stuff to it. Many 'water holding crystals' etc in expensive mixes have been shown to be useless.and what does added humic acids exactly mean? or 'wetting agent'(=soap/detergent?).
One day we might see a detailed list of ingredients on Potting Mix as we do food for us.

[JMJones0424]

Originally Posted by Michaelangelica

I do use Miracle Grow and osmocote in Pots as I feel it is such an artificial situation to start with. I use a very weak solution. Yes I have read that nitrogenous fertilisers kill the 'wee beasties' that make nitrogen. At least osmocote mimics the slow release pattern of natural soil fertiliser. i do use manures in Pots too- but you do have to be careful. I usually put them at the bottom of the pot with my potting mix on top to initially insulate plant roots from touching too fresh manures. With big established pots I add it to the top as the potting mix disappears.

There is a lot wrong with this statement, but here's an overview.

Your view of small containers as being an unnatural environment, and therefor ok to use synthetic fertilizer salts is fine IF you are unconcerned about fostering soil microbiology. The point you are missing is that even a quart size pot could potentially contain countless millions of organism, and using fertilizer salts is an excellent way to seriously inhibit both population and diversification.

This has nothing to do with just nitrogenous fertilizers, this includes all fertilizer salts. I do not understand how people who see the value of a highly active soil could even consider using fertilizer salts. Osmocote mimics the slow release of natural fertilizer just as mercury poisoning mimics the slow onset of age related disease. My point is that the use of fertilizer salts if you are concerned about microbial life in the soil, and it appears that you are, is not just unnecessary, but close to the worst thing you can possibly use.

There is a huge difference between manures and composts. Raw manures (except worm castings, rabbit pellets, and maybe a few others) have no place in the planting media, as it is far too strong for roots. I do use raw manure when "fallowing" a planting bed, but I place it ON TOP of the soil at two or three inches deep and cover with six inches of straw, and let this sit for at least six months before planting anything in that bed again. A more common alternative is to till in the manure in the fall.

It would appear that you are coming at this with a laboratory chemist's view. I made that mistake a few decades ago. Plants take up ionic compounds in an aqueous solution. Soil is not even needed to produce very healthy, robust plants. In fact, if vegetative growth alone were the only determining factor, I would still be growing everything hydroponically, as it is far easier to maintain optimum dissolved oxygen content in the root zone if you get rid of that troublesome soil. However, one can approach the high yields of hydroponics if you foster a well aerated, biologically diverse planting medium, where so many mutually beneficial relationships exist between root and microbe. I do believe this produces a plant with more nutritional benefits, and we are just beginning to understand why this is so.

Biochar should not be viewed as a magic bullet that allows you to ignore all the other aspects of organic gardening, if you are truly interested in ending up with terra preta. Biochar can be an excellent soil amendment that helps in water retention and CEC. With a heavy clay soil, I am not interested in supplementing either of these properties. I need aeration, and I can find no study or anecdotal evidence as to long term benefits of biochar in this regard. You have been looking at this far more than I, can you point me in the right direction?

[JMJones0424]

Originally Posted by Michaelangelica

... and what does added humic acids exactly mean? or 'wetting agent'(=soap/detergent?).
One day we might see a detailed list of ingredients on Potting Mix as we do food for us.

Humic acids are a natural byproduct of fungal degradation of lignin. They have a high CEC, are very persistent, and are natural chelators used often in potting mixes to help make iron and other micronutrients available to plants. Humic acids, along with fulvic acids and humins, are the major constituents of humic substances.

A wetting agent is anything that breaks the surface tension of water. These are very useful in mixes with high proportions of peat, as they counteract peat's natural hydrophobic properties. Dish washing soap is a commonly used wetting agent, and it helps foliar sprays adhere to leaf surfaces.

I doubt seriously we will ever see ingredient lists in potting soils, as it is impractical. Companies that produce potting soils use various different feedstocks, that are usually only seasonally available, and mix in different proportions to end up with a uniform end product.

[JMJones0424]

The more I think about it, I think the role of clay pottery shards in terra preta may be in providing a relatively large particle to aid aeration / drainage in what would otherwise end up being too heavy of a planting medium. If your soil is largely sandy, then this is unnecessary. If your soil is largely silt or clay, then this is imperative, and a modern alternative would be perlite, expanded shale, lava sand, crushed hydroton rocks, etc.