Intense nutrition load soils - Organic?

[Essay]

Originally Posted by Ganoderma

good stuff! i have tried teas with good results also, but using ingredients like molasses is not something i hope to depend on as it is more of a refined product i need to buy. i have wondered about using sugar cane leaves/stems as a substitute though. our neighbor is a sugar cane farmer and once they squeeze the sugary juices out they use the left over as a mulch in their gardens, with pretty decent results i might add!

you guys have any ideas on compost teas on a large scale? i used my hotplate and pot, but something larger, thinking many gallons at a time, would be ideal...what is an efficient way of poo collection, on a large scale, without spending all weekend finger up worm doo doo? i was thinking of some kind of screened bins, but never really followed through with a good system


all my gardens, minus pots, are in ground except one raised experiment bed with is on concrete. all are loaded with whatever naturally occurring worms we have...i have seen 4 species, some more numerous than others. the results of these gardens are decent, like mentioned above if the plants are fighting off invasions on their own, they are at least happy. my problem is that although its good enough for grandmas rose garden, its not going to compete on a production scale (for me mostly fruit trees), which is where i need the intense part. teas certainly seem like a great method, work good, but also lots of work (i think).

i wonder if there is some kind of cool fermentation type tank like you see in pig farms for example where tehy let teh poop sit in big pools and do their stuff to break down (nasty!). could this theoretically work with plant composting? one last thought before i find myself rambling all through the night again.... what about a large compost bin. think a 10x10x5' high concrete cube open at the top. on the bottom about say 6-12" from the concrete floor is a screened so larger particles cannot fall through, lets say 1/2" holes for example. let the compost sit and do its thing for XX months. now i am thinking having a hole in the bottom hooked up to a hose, pour water through the top and let it go down to the bottom and collect small particles, nutrition?, and go through the house, and voila a VERY lazy compost tea. obviously not like a tea, but similar.....could anyone see drawbacks to this idea?

i will likely have irrigation pipes for the farm, so hooking this compost box up to that would be super easy, and regular little effort. just keep throwing thing into the top and letting them go about their business....stupid? possible?

If you're doing fruit trees, you might want to study fungal/soil enhancement techniques.
Most of this stuff (worms/teas/sugars) is to enhance microbial development.

I'm just getting into the front of this book [google the contents for an inspirational trip] and noticed some headings about trees (and perennials) preferring fungal dominated soils, whereas annuals prefer bacterially dominated soils.

Interesting distinction that I don't know much about--yet.
The book is Teaming with Microbes:

Amazon.com: Teaming with Microbes: A Gardener's...
Amazon.com: Teaming with Microbes: A Gardener's...

...now on my Kindle!
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That's a neat idea about washing the compost. You should ask the Worm-Man about that one. See:
Garbage Busters Home

He has a general bent against teas, but should still be able to give you some insight about hybridizing a composting and irrigation system.
He's great with compost bins/techniques/tricks. He's got a 10x10x10-foot cube that he just tumbles occasionally, somehow.

Certainly his "worm herding" techniques should save your hands (and some time).
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I'm learning about fine-tuning biochars, to enhance different soils, by choosing different feedstocks and by processing at different temperatures (and for differing retention times).

In general low-temp/short-duration-processing biochars will be acidic, and high temp/longer processing will produce biochars that have a liming effect.
I wonder if one or the other favors fungal over bacterial also....
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...also
I wonder if growing plants organically (so the mycorrhizal connection becomes well-established) is what enables the plants to fight off infections/insect attacks. I think that would make sense on several levels.
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Let me know if you can't find the worm-herding techniques!
Enjoy the wonder....

[Michaelangelica]

Originally Posted by Essay

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I'm learning about fine-tuning biochars, to enhance different soils, by choosing different feedstocks and by processing at different temperatures (and for differing retention times).

In general low-temp/short-duration-processing biochars will be acidic, and high temp/longer processing will produce biochars that have a liming effect.
I wonder if one or the other favors fungal over bacterial also....
===

.

Great observation, thanks; do you mind if I throw it to the biochar Listserv to see their reaction?

[Ganoderma]

wow that is very nice to know that barely any molasses is needed, relative to other ingredients. you say 5 gallons per 1/4 acre. seems a little light, do you apply this fairly often?

Essay, that book does look interesting, i have it ordered and on the way soon. it is interesting that "fruits & vegetables" would like bacteria over fungi or other way around....some families have both fruit n veg, wonder if it is a growth style over a taxonomic relation. guess i cant really guess much til i read the book though

worman seems liek a real knowledgable feller. i am looking through his site, some neat info. but i dont see his worm herding technique.

i used to have a flat slab of concrete i tried composting on. i made a long mound, like a sausage of crap. let the worms do their bit for a month (covered with a tarp to keep light out and moisture in). once it was mostly chewed through i added food to only one side and the sausage would in a way roll towards the food and leave worm poop behind. it was neat to see, had some flaws that im sure others have worked through, but it worked nicely. the disadvantage was the space it took to do, so i stopped.

as it turns out, the farm next to ours, a retired coconut farm, is changing crops and they are cutting the coco down, large ones. i am asking if they want to jsut dump the logs on my land and i can find a use for them. i was thinking growing some Reishi mushrooms as they grow on coconut well, but i am also totally into soil improvement if someone thinks of something. one thought was grow the mushrooms, then let the microrganisms, beetle larva, worms and whatever else want a feed in and use the final result as a real rich "loamy mulch" type thing. anyone tried similar things? the trees are about 60cm+ diameter so not little or fast to break down.

[Essay]

Originally Posted by Michaelangelica

Great observation, thanks; do you mind if I throw it to the biochar Listserv to see their reaction?

About the acid/base relations in biochar, I tried to find a citation but I guess I made that up from reading about the process of pyrolysis at different temperatures....
You get a lot more functional groups (carboxyls, lactones, phenols, amines, pyranones, etc.) attached to the carbon lattice of biochar pores for chars created in lower temp/shorter heating time. And with higher temps and longer processing time you get a more pure carbon lattice. Of course this all is relative to the starting feedstock and its composition and physical properties.

My fairly unjustifiable leap in logic was to assume most of those functional groups would be acidic. They are both acidic and basic. I'm speculating about the bases being more easily oxidized, cross-reacting, or otherwise being more easily neutralized than the acids.

I know the Oxygen content of these functional groups is related to lower pH and higher CEC, which diminishes with higher temps and longer processing times as the oxygen-containing functional groups are volatilized and driven off. In the book Biochar for Environmental Management: Science and Technology, it says: "Biochar with low O functional group contents show basic surface properties and anion exchange behaviour." -(p.122, Lehmann 2009)

also....
At lower temps the organic sulfurs convert to acidic sulfates, but at higher temps these are lost or reduced to sulfides and other less soluble or less biologically-available forms of sulfur. -(p.78, Lehmann 2009)

So on balance I'd think lower temps would produce more acidic biochars (relative to a given starting material/feedstock).
It's at those lower temperatures that you drive off the "wood vinegar," so until it gets hot enough (or long enough) to drive off all the pyroligneous acids (wood vinegar), I'd think it would be an acidic char--but that's just for wood.


BUT...
The variation in these factors (pH, CEC) can be more strongly affected by the different feedstocks used, than they are affected by the high heat/alkalinity association.
And different processing regimes can lead to reduction or enhancement--of the functionality and bioavailability--of the various acidic and basic components of any given biochar. Biochar is highly variable depending on feedstock, and goes it through several "phase changes" as heating increases--involving almost every chemical reaction imaginable--so it shouldn't be surprising to get conflicting results from only minor variations in processing conditions.
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So I guess I shouldn't have been putting that out there as a general rule of thumb, but more as a starting point for anyone wanting to try designing a particular quality into their biochar.

As it says on page 68, "...biochars can be produced at almost any pH between 4 and 12 (Lehmann, 2007) and can decrease to a pH value of 2.5 after short-term incubation of four months at 70 degrees C (Cheng et al, 2006)." Things can even change as the biochar matures and ages.

I think the only rule of thumb about biochar should be that no blanket statements can be made.

Have I back-peddled enough? As long as it's as a relative tendancy and not as a rule, I think it'd be okay to post that elsewhere; but it needs to be within the larger context of tentative observations and speculations--please.

[Essay]

Originally Posted by Ganoderma

worman seems liek a real knowledgable feller. i am looking through his site, some neat info. but i dont see his worm herding technique.

as it turns out, the farm next to ours, a retired coconut farm, is changing crops and they are cutting the coco down, large ones. i am asking if they want to jsut dump the logs on my land and i can find a use for them. i was thinking growing some Reishi mushrooms as they grow on coconut well, but i am also totally into soil improvement if someone thinks of something. one thought was grow the mushrooms, then let the microrganisms, beetle larva, worms and whatever else want a feed in and use the final result as a real rich "loamy mulch" type thing. anyone tried similar things? the trees are about 60cm+ diameter so not little or fast to break down.

Well it sounds as if you're already effectively herding the worms. I've only seen it demonstrated once, but basically it was, as you did, encourage the worms to move to one side of the "pile" ...and also, mainly, to discourage them from enjoying the other side--by exposing it to light/heat/drying air. After a while you rake through the relatively worm-free side to collect the casting-rich compost until you get to wetter cooler dirt with worms in it. Then you wait till that dirt/compost warms and dries enough, and the worms have moved further toward the cool wet side. Basically you keep chasing them into a small pile of remaining cool wet dirt and then let the kids pick them all out. A few get caught in the raking and collecting, but that just enriches the mixture.

Good luck with the logs. Muxhrooms would be a good first step towards getting those logs into the soil (in some form or another). They might be a lot easier to work with (split, chip, or shave) after a few mushroom harvests.

hmmmm.... Now I'm wondering what sort of biochar derives from rotted wood.

[Essay]

Originally Posted by Ganoderma

In the beginning stages of getting the farm built and have decided to turn 1/4-1/2 into an experimental multi crop section. the goal is to use all space available for food plants and get as high yields without additional chemicals.

I have been running an experimental bed for 3 years which is packed with plants and uses a tera pretta style soil. lots of charcoal and some brick/broken pottery. this bed i just use all the dead plants/leaves and other organic waste (including caterpillars/snails that get the hammer ) and it has been good, but moderate yields of things like pepper, tomato and such.

so i am starting with a flat piece of hard crappy dirt. i am planning on bringing in dead vegetation (lots around after this recent typhoon!) and taking the wood to make charcoal and the rest to make compost/loam.

Question is what are some good ways to really *FEED* plants via organic. i know its a slower process, but surely there are ways if planned ahead and just let it run as a constant cycle...? i also do the "throw it on the surface" technique. leaves and such just get thrown all over the ground, it has been a very effective "slow release" fertilizer the last 3 years, but i need a boost.


any thoughts?

"...it has been good, but moderate yields of things like pepper, tomato and such." -Ganoderma

That could be a fungal/bacterial thing, but....
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About the "maturing" of biochar in the soil--and its variable effects:

After reading about these effects (with lots more to read), I'm getting the sense that:
Especially for low-temp. chars (with more bacterially-edible volatiles), these can stimulate microbial growth and-- while the growth phase is ongoing--the available nutrients (for the plants) can be sucked up by the microbes.

It is only later as the microbial populations stop blooming and stabilize that they will release nutrients back to the plants--or cycle new nutrients to the plants. This could be operating in general for all nutrients, or for just one or two specific nutrients.
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I think the sugars and compost teas help feed the growing populations (and help innoculate new areas)--leading to a quicker stabilizing of the microbial populations--so healthy and rapid nutrient cycling can proceed and include the plants.

It's great to get those algaes growing--fixing CO2 and N2--leading to less need for supplemental organic matter to maintain the bacteria and/or fungi.

[lemit]

A friend pointed out to me that I had forgotten to mention that I use pine bedding with a little baking soda for my guinea pigs.

I hope nobody got the pH mixed up because I failed to mention that.

--lemit

[Eclipse Now]

Hi all,
I was just wondering if I could move this in a slightly different direction and ask about cow pooh and especially humanure?

Please check out this smallish video file (4 minutes)

green.tv » Video

Starts off showing them collecting cow pooh but then shows pipes that can one day be connected up to toilets.

BUT they seem to be using the slurry leftover muck DIRECTLY on their crops! No no NO! This can cause disease.... I thought we should NEVER put this stuff directly on the crops, but had it removed from the crops by a degree of separation.

EG: By all means fertilise fruit trees with it and energy crops with it, and then use clippings from fruit trees and energy crops (like switchgrass) to compost and then compost to soil? But never put sewerage slurry directly onto the veggie patch, for example!

Also, I'm really glad to hear that biochar use is so widespread these days. Can anyone tell me if they know if major city sewerage systems could be fitted to biochar sewerage (with maybe council green waste) and if so, would it lose too many of the nutrients from the slurry?

[maikeru]

I'm wondering, but have waste processing facilities and farmers considered pyrolysis of humanure and animal manures to produce biochar? That would sterilize the poo, reduce its volume and weight, and put it back in the ground for better purposes.

[Ganoderma]

there are some farmers doing this. there is a good write up of a larger scale chicken farm, i think in the states, using this to generate power and also sells the remaining char to other farmers. i looked into it briefly because i have a plant farm and the in laws have a large pig farm...but the cost stopped us from doing it....seems really wet poop, like pig poo always is after washing out the pig sties (is that how you spell it?). being pretty much liquid it seemed efficiency was poor....at least in other peoples systems.

not sure how it would work with human systems as there is lost of non human waste flushed down the toilet...wonder if tissue is ok in these systems...i assume it would be fine...but i cant see all the plastic and chemicals helping anything. at least with farming waste it is more or less clean poo...at least in the sense there is no litter.

EG: By all means fertilise fruit trees with it and energy crops with it, and then use clippings from fruit trees and energy crops (like switchgrass) to compost and then compost to soil? But never put sewerage slurry directly onto the veggie patch, for example!

hooking up to anything where it comes into contact with the end product seems pretty sketchy....like you say fruit crops and non food crops would probably be the best use. about 15 years ago one of the biggest farms in our area (in canada) wanted to use human waste (treated somehow) on their daffodil fields (many acres). city council was all fr it but the town complained too much, so it keeps getting dumped into the ocean....much better...


Essay, that is very interesting stuff. i jsut got that book, not much time to really get into right now but i flip the odd page here and there. some neat stuff in there. i am deciding on using say 10foot lengths of the coconut trees, assuming i can have them for free, and making a pile stacked on their sides into a triangle say 6 feet tall +/-. i will fill all the cracks with coco coir (great for fungal growth). i will have re bar sticking out of the pile with ropes tide at the top to form a "mesh" about 4 feet above the logs following their shape, this will grow vines. the idea is to inoculate the logs with mushrooms, likely ganoderma, and let the plants above shade them and also keep humidity in. it will also increase surface area for the plants so i will theoretically get more yield from the vines.