Terra Preta - The parent thread which started it all

[erich]

Originally Posted by Michaelangelica

How many wives are allowed by the Kyoto protocol ? or must we be gay?

You got me? how many?

[chrisbrandow]

I was wondering about the common practice of adding coffee grounds to soil. As I understand it, they can be 20-30% carbon, depending on how dark the roast. Perhaps the carbon content plays a role. For the home gardener this might be a simple way to add carbon.

[InfiniteNow]

Originally Posted by chrisbrandow

I was wondering about the common practice of adding coffee grounds to soil. As I understand it, they can be 20-30% carbon, depending on how dark the roast. Perhaps the carbon content plays a role. For the home gardener this might be a simple way to add carbon.

You're definitely on the right track chris. They also add nitrogen, and have an approximate C:N ration of 20:1!...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffee#Other_uses

Spent coffee grounds are a good fertilizer in gardens because of their high nitrogen content. Starbucks, and some other coffee shops, have a specific policy of giving away their used coffee grounds to gardeners. While they tend to be only slightly acidic, they also tend to improve the acidity of garden soil through the same chemical processes that cause sawdust to do the same thing. Coffee grounds raise soil acidity sooner if they are added fresh, instead of after brewing. Likewise, coffee diluted with four times its volume of water can be used to amend soil acidity, especially useful for tomatoes, chili peppers, blueberries, and other plants that like high soil acidity.

http://www.hort.purdue.edu/ext/groundsforgardening.html

Coffee grounds are a low-level source of nitrogen, having a fertilizer value of around 2.0-0.3-0.2, as well as a minor source of calcium and magnesium. Post-brewed coffee grounds are reported to be slightly to highly acidic, depending on the source, but no more so than peat moss. So, one could apply them to the soil for acid-loving plants, such as rhododendrons, azaleas and blueberries, etc. They might even help keep your bigleaf hydrangeas blue. Or, you could spread them out over a larger garden area to minimize the pH effect. It's difficult to make a specific recommendation for an application rate, but it's always better to err on the lighter side, since the pH can be variable. A rate of 10 pounds (dry weight) per 1000 square feet would be conservative.

[Michaelangelica]

Originally Posted by chrisbrandow

I was wondering about the common practice of adding coffee grounds to soil. As I understand it, they can be 20-30% carbon, depending on how dark the roast. Perhaps the carbon content plays a role. For the home gardener this might be a simple way to add carbon.

You could be right. I don't know.Certainly one for Cornell Uni to experiment with.Although Coffee Grounds have a carbon-nitrogen (C-N) ratio of 20-1, this is not charcoal-carbon which Terra preta seems to need.
They are still good to use in the garden Here is some web links I found:-
.

Coffee Grounds 2 0.3 0.2 Highly acidic, best for use in alkaline soils

.http://www.ibiblio.org/london/permac.../msg00085.html
As biofuel
http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:...ient=firefox-a
In compost
http://www.newsflash.org/2003/05/si/si001535.htm

When used properly, coffee grounds can act as a green material with a
carbon-nitrogen (C-N) ratio of 20-1.

helping salty soil (This is a good use)
http://www.stansw.asn.au/ys/mcleod.htm

organic content (Coffee grounds) of the soil had a protective effect on salt toxicity to carrots.

Coffee grounds as fertilizer (A good gardening site too):
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles/nyerges44.html

Used coffee grounds contain about two percent nitrogen, about a third of a percent of phosphoric acid, and varying amounts of potash (generally less than one percent). Analysis of coffee grounds shows that they contain many minerals, including trace minerals, carbohydrates, sugars, some vitamins, and some caffeine. They are particularly useful on those plants for which you would purchase and apply an “acid food,” such as blueberries, evergreens, azaleas, roses, camellias, avocados, and certain fruit trees.

We dry our coffee grounds in the oven, too. Then we scatter them lightly, as a mulch, around those plants which we feel would benefit from them. We don’t scatter them thickly when they are wet, because the coffee grounds have a tendency to get moldy.

The growth of plants that like or need lime (which we can provide with eggshells) can be stimulated by adding a mixture of ground-up eggshells and dried coffee grounds.

In Commercial Mixes
Grow Joe Fertilizer:
http://growjoeplantfood.com/coffee.html
--
PS
Just had another thought re DIY Planet Coolingthread.
If we all collected Coffee grounds from GJ's and Starbucks (who it is said have a policy to give C.G. to gardeners -yes Star an GG's are breeding here too!) we would be helping to cool the planet.
My reasoning:-
Coffee grounds otherwise go to landfill, and break down anerobically causing methane gass a major green-house gas.
(Landfills are the major source of methane)

[erich]

I've sent Dr Antal, ( "FLash Carbonization" process: http://www.hnei.hawaii.edu/bio.r3.asp#flashcarb ) the Terra preta links and asked if he has considered these Amazon Dark Soils (ADS), Here's Dr. Antal reply:


"Dear Mr. Knight: over the past seven years my colleagues and I have written at least six proposals to initiate scientific studies of terra preta here at UH. None were funded. I suggest that you carry your message to your congressional representatives. Terra preta will not be developed if we continue to follow a business as usual appraoch. Best wishes, Michael.

Michael J. Antal, Jr.
Coral Industries Distinguished Professor of Renewable Energy Resources
Hawaii Natural Energy Institute
School of Ocean and Earth Science and Technology (SOEST)
1680 East-West Rd., POST 109
University of Hawaii at Manoa
Honolulu, HI 96822"




Also:
Dr. Steven Hodges of Virginia Tech sent this reply:


"Erich:
I attended some of the sessions at the World Congress of Soil Science on Terra Preta and had perused Dr. Lehmann's page at Cornell early last spring. We do have ongoing work on both biomass production for biorenewable fuels and the use of pyrolysis here at Va Tech (biological systems engineering). Our nutrient management specialist, Dr. Rory Maguire will be working with them to explore the use of the "by-product" char as their production models increase in scale to the point that we have enough product to work with.
While overall this looks like something that could help us from an energy standpoint, in the "Soil" scheme of things, there are some down sides of pyrolysis/char utilization. Significant amount of N are lost from the biomass, resulting in a very low N content in the char. When applied to soil, this can upset carbon to nitrogen balance to the point that microbial populations are shocked, and crop yields are significantly reduced if not carefully managed. In addition, the fine ash needs to be incorporated into the soil via tillage, putting it in conflict with no-till or reduced tillage systems in crops - a practice which also helps sequester carbon and has many other environmental benefits. Bottom line - this is something we are aware of and it is on our research agenda.

Thanks for the information and the inquiry.

Steven "



After a brief search of Charcoal Wholesalers, The best price so far, for Ag-Grade Charcoal is, trucked from Missouri, $225/ton delivered 900 miles to Virginia, $125/ton at the Charcoal yard,



We need a grand convergence:
In academia; Engineering, agronomist, soil geologist,anthropologist, bio-chemist, mycologist, zoologist ..............................

In the Public sector; waste managers, Extension agents, Environmental engineers, Energy Policy makers,........................................

In the private Sector; corporate farms, fossil fuel generators, small farmers, and the few charcoal makers left (seems mostly in Missouri )

[Michaelangelica]

I am not sure I understand
Dr. Steven Hodges of Virginia Tech reply:

It is sad for the Race (Homo Sapiens) that they cannot as a group respond to new ideas in universal fashion.

Do the cockroaches have stock options??


A Spanish? link
http://midier.net/agro/TerraPreta.html

[erich]

Yes ..I am forming up a post to him with questions about his "microbial populations are shocked" statment.


Here is the GOOGLE translation, first time I've used it, doesn't seem to help that much:

http://translate.google.com/translat...language_tools

[maikeru]

I think that the fact that charcoal is so stable makes it a good option for current farming or gardening methods that include tillage. The charcoal may capture gases released from the soil if organic material is aerobically or anaerobically degraded into methane, carbon dioxide, or various nitrogenous gases.

I also think Dr. Hodges has a point about microbial population shock due to low N levels, but microbes can repopulate rapidly given the right conditions or enough time. In the case of terra preta, it seems that soil microbes and fungi thrive due to numerous reasons. But there is a reason why terra preta was amended with kitchen waste, bones, manure, etc. Charcoal alone doesn't do much, as I've noticed from experimenting with my indoor herb garden. Seeds don't seem to like to germinate in a soil too high in charcoal content (I tried some basil, thyme, and marjoram in a 70 or 80% powdered charcoal and potting soil mix, and I got a few weak seedlings which died a few days later; quite the contrast to my other ones growing vigorously in 20-40% charcoal).

BTW, I want to let you guys know that you've made a terra-preta gardener out of me over the last couple months as I've lurked on this forum and in particular this thread. Black is the new green.

[erich]

Welcome Brother Meikeru:

Eprida's Ecoss fertilizer would seem to address this problem.

It sounds like the way you can sour a soil or stunt a compost pile thru N depletion, but that is the result of to much undigested cellulose, I thought that char was just the "bones" of that cellulose, all cooked out, ?

Also I want to asK Dr Hodges about the use of modern soil amendments like: Time release fertilizers, local mass produced Compost, and Fungi Innoculants.

What I want is a recipe to spread and till.
Our fields were put to the plow relentlessly until 25 years ago. A little tilling now , for the prospect of these benefits, to get TP into the first 8 inches seems worth disruption of the soil horizons.
I think of it as urban renewal , but with really good public housing.



A Reply from KingsFord , made my day, :

"Dear Mr. Knight,

Thank you for contacting us about Kingsford BBQ Bag Single Use Charcoal Briquets. We always appreciate hearing from our consumers.

We have received your email regarding the use of Terra Preta soil technology. We are glad that you think high enough of our company to want to assist us in finding alternate methods of producing charcoal. I have forwarded all of the information that you sent on to the appropriate department.

Again, thank you for contacting us.

Sincerely,

Lee Summers



Consumer Response Representative
Consumer Services

[Michaelangelica]

Welcome Brother Meikeru:

Interesting experiment.
I wonder if the charcoal had a light dose of liquid fertiliser this would make any difference? There may not have been enough aeration of the roots either with fine charcoal?

Eprida's Ecoss fertilizer would seem to address this problem.

No where does anyone suggest that charcoal should replace fertiliser. Fertiliser and organic matter, including fish, seem all part of the mix.
They do say that fertiliser requirements are reduced in year(s?) following amendment and water use is decreased by up to 17%
Charcoal is not going to tie up N ! wood and sawdust do
and where does the ash come in? Wood ash is a different ball-game altogether.
Microbial communities are going to be best served by organic matter and organic fertilisers.
So what the hell is Dr Hodges on about? Was he awake during the lecture?

Ii have used Osmocote and other time release fertilisers in a nursey situation. I liked them because they mimicked natural fertilisers and remained in the pot and so did not pollute local rivers etc. They fed the plant for some time after leaving the nursery and so the plants survived New Gardeners well.
I imagine the beauty of charcoal is that it would stop fertiliser run-off if you used liquid fertilisers (?)

On a personal note I have finally found a charcoal manufacturer (hardwood too!) up the coast. The bad news is that it will cost me as much in postage as the charcoal