[Michaelangelica]

[quote=Michaelangelica]This is a very good article on terra preta soils " saving soil as well as the planet" an amazing article with a lot of implications for climate control, global warming as well as agriculture
http://www.bidstrup.com/carbon.htm

The question now seems to be "Are their special microrganisms that keep terra preta soil fertile?"
or
"Can anyone achive Terra preta soil by adding 30-40 carbon to the soil?"
+ some pottery fragments?

Cornell Uni is doing a lot of reseach on this at the moment.
The whole thing is a very big deal with amazing consequenses for us all.
Check out the terra prata home site + Cornell Uni.'s site
Michael
["Be wary of health books ,
you might die of a misprint"
Mark Twain]

[Turtle]

Originally Posted by Michaelangelica

This is a very good article on terra preta soils " saving soil as well as the planet" an amazing article with a lot of implications for climate control, global warming as well as agriculture
http://www.bidstrup.com/carbon.htm

["Be wary of health books ,
you might die of a misprint"
Mark Twain]

Thanks for the link; I have bookmarked it for further reading. I have also started adding 'horticultural charcoal' (from the bag label) to my garden soil in small amounts beneath each seed/seed bed.

[Michaelangelica]

Thanks for your post.
You can find more info on Terra preta here;
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.t...c5695c39ea5d7c
and here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon...eldorado.shtml.

I bought some horticultural charchol added it to my orchid mix (which the pack recommends). However it was expensive so I bought some BBQ charchol cheaper, but still dearer than I think it should be. ( It comes from Malaysia- from their rainforests?)I note in the article I mentioned in my previous post; that the charchol used in Terra preta soils was very fine, ground up, with few bits over1/2inch so, I have been bashing the BBQ charcol with a brick and it breaks up rather well. I have been adding this to my potting mix; then giving it a liquid fertiliser.

There may be a biological component to Terra preta soils. It may contain some unique microorganisms; reseach is away at Cornell Uni on this now.
I thought I would add a little sugar to the mix to see if this encouraged bacterial growth. Probably not a great idea but I have a couple of "control" pots and will see what happens.

I found a company called "Barmac" that sells activated charchol that is very fine and can be sprayed on turf. They have been selling it for years to professional greenkeepers and say it helps seed germination and will soak up a pesticide spill. That is their major sales pitch. I am not sure what the difference is between "activated" charchol and charchol.Do you?

I note bio-dynamic gardeners use a soil innoculant that they make from cow manure; burried in a cow horn for some months then mixed with water and sprinkled on the soil. I wonder if they are adding important microflora to the soil? There would certainly be lots of bacteria in the long, involved digestive processes of a cow.
I also know that professional Rose growers swear that cow manure is the ONLY fertiliser to use for good rose growth.

I have also been researching "horticultural clay". The Terra preta soils were full of pottery shards. Horticultural clay seems to be used mainly in hydroponic systems. It does have a fine porous structure and might provide a good home for bacteria or it might trap fertiliser. I think it could be some sort of catalyst to the whole tera preta dynamic.

Just a few thoughts.
I hope you find this topic as facinating as I do. You must try to see the BBC, TV show on this; it is a facinating archeological detective story.

Hope your plants grow well !
Michael

[Turtle]

Originally Posted by Michaelangelica

There may be a biological component to Terra preta soils. It may contain some unique microorganisms; reseach is away at Cornell Uni on this now.
I thought I would add a little sugar to the mix to see if this encouraged bacterial growth. Probably not a great idea but I have a couple of "control" pots and will see what happens.

... I am not sure what the difference is between "activated" charchol and charchol.Do you?

I have also been researching "horticultural clay". The Terra preta soils were full of pottery shards. Horticultural clay seems to be used mainly in hydroponic systems. It does have a fine porous structure and might provide a good home for bacteria or it might trap fertiliser. I think it could be some sort of catalyst to the whole tera preta dynamic.

Just a few thoughts.
I hope you find this topic as facinating as I do. You must try to see the BBC, TV show on this; it is a facinating archeological detective story.

Hope your plants grow well !
Michael

First last: The show I mention may be a BBC production, so I may have seen the one you have.
I don't have any info on horticultural clays, but pottery shards if from fired pottery isn't very porous & less so if glazed.
Yes I know what makes 'activated' charcoal different. It is charcoal heated to high temperature in the absence of oxygen. This drives off the volatile elements & leaves more cavities in the carbon. The 'activity' of carbon is adsorption, not to be confused with 'absorption'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adsorption
I did understand from the show that a micro-organism component is suspected but not yet isolated; looking forward to an update on the Cornell research.
Very interesting topic yes.

[Michaelangelica]

So would Amazonian Natives have access to 'activated carbon'? Would the temperatures in pottery kilns be high enough to make the charcoal become activated? the research doesn't seem to make clear what sort of carbon we are talking about.
If 'activated' has more cavities; wouldn't this be a good thing?

The pottery thing:
I was thinking terracotta type pots. Again the research does not say if pots were glazed or porous. Just that thousands of shards where found associated with the Terra preta soils but no where else!?
Many of the shards where from vast storage jars.

Mmmm ?!?!??
I am sure we will here more soon. It's all very puzzeling and facinating.
The implications for farming, gardening and global warming are immense.

Thanks for your post
Michael

[Michaelangelica]

[quote=Michaelangelica]So would Amazonian Natives have access to 'activated carbon'? Would the temperatures in pottery kilns be high enough to make the charcoal become activated? the research doesn't seem to make clear what sort of carbon we are talking about.
If 'activated' has more cavities; wouldn't this be a good thing?

The pottery thing:
I was thinking terracotta type pots. Again the research does not say if pots were glazed or porous. Just that thousands of shards where found associated with the Terra preta soils but no where else!?
Many of the shards where from vast storage jars.

Mmmm ?!?!??
I am sure we will here more soon. It's all very puzzeling and facinating.
The implications for farming, gardening and global warming are immense.

Thanks for your post
Michael

[If leeks you like but do their smell dislike, eat onions and you shall not smell the leek. If you of onions would the scent expel, eat garlic, that shall drown the onion smell. But against garlic’s savour if you smart, I know one recipe. What’s that? A fart.- olde english rhyme]

[Turtle]

[quote=Michaelangelica]

Originally Posted by Michaelangelica

So would Amazonian Natives have access to 'activated carbon'? Would the temperatures in pottery kilns be high enough to make the charcoal become activated? the research doesn't seem to make clear what sort of carbon we are talking about.
If 'activated' has more cavities; wouldn't this be a good thing?

Kiln temps high enough, yes. I don't have any knowledge on whether Amazonians purposefully manufactured activated charcoal.
More cavities=better in terms of how long the adsorption continues without further application of charcoal. Once the cavities have all filled, the charcoal is in effect 'used up' until or unless some other process releases it. Simple charcoal from a fireplace still adsorbs; breaking into smaller pieces increase surface area & so efficacy.

[Michaelangelica]

[quote=Turtle]yes. I don't have any knowledge on whether Amazonians purposefully manufactured activated charcoal.
More cavities=better in terms of how long the adsorption continues without further application of charcoal.

It seems Amazonians made these soils purposefully; so they must also have made the charchol. Aparently there is evidence that the charchol has been deliberatly ground down into fine particles before adding to the soil. The soil is definately a man-made artifact that at one time supported a huge population.

The soils seem to last a long time.
Some modern Amazonians sell Terra praeta soils to other farmers. They say this is fine because their Terra praeta soil "grows back" !
Michael

[erich]

A few years ago,can't recall where, I saw an article on the Terra preta soils comparing it to the native arboriculture practiced by the east coast Indians. What the Europeans saw as virgin hardwood forest was in fact a large scale permaculture of predominantly nut trees.

Over the past 25 years I've experimented in my soil prep regimes with charcoal, ag gypsum, the expanded clays, this is what I have come to believe is the biggest bang for the buck , at least for my clay & loam soils in the Shenandoah valley of VA:

Permatill (also called VoleBloc): a mined expanded slate from NC, in the bag or if you have a big job you can get it by the tractor trailer. It is also used as growing medium for "Green Roof" installations.When roots hit it they bifurcate like crazy

Mycorisal fungus inoculation: The sleep then creep then leap phenomena of new plantings is over come by the acceleration of the reestablishment of the symbiotic fungal / root relationship. M-Roots is the best , 25 billion per 40 lb bag @ $13, both indo and exo species

Good old Compost: I have cultivated several poultry farmers over the years into making compost, at $20 per yard , I top dress with an inch before mulching every year, and let the worms feed the deeper soil. My worm populations have gone from 1 per every 2 shovels of soil to 5 per 1 shovel.

Also a big WiltPruf Fan , and water holding polymers (SoilMoist) for containers

Erich

[Michaelangelica]

Permatill (also called VoleBloc): a mined expanded slate from NC, in the bag or if you have a big job you can get it by the tractor trailer.
Mycorisal fungus inoculation:
Also a big WiltPruf Fan , and water holding polymers (SoilMoist) for containers

Erich[/quote]


'Permatill' and 'Mycorisal fungus inoculation' are not available to home gardeners here.
Are there other ways to encourage Mycorrhizal fungus?
What is a "big WiltPruf Fan"?
I often worry that water holding crystals suck water out of plants as they dry out.(?) I've played with them but I usually end up with a mess in pots.

here is another web site on Terra preta . A good summary of what has been found:
http://www.discussanything.com/forum...p/t-68405.html

"Terra preta is scattered throughout Amazonia, but it is most frequently found on low hills overlooking rivers—the kind of terrain on which indigenous groups preferred to live. According to Eduardo Neves, an archaeologist at the University of São Paulo who is part of the Iranduba team, the oldest deposits date back more than 2000 years and occur in the lower and central Amazon; terra preta then appeared to spread to cultures upriver. By A.D. 500 to 1000, he says, “it appeared in almost every part of the Amazon Basin.”

Typically, black-soil regions cover 1 to 5 ha, but some encompass 300 ha or more. The black soils are generally 40 to 60 cm deep but can reach more than 2 m. Almost always they are full of broken ceramics. Although they were created centuries ago—probably for agriculture, researchers such as Woods believe—patches of terra preta are still among the most desirable land in the Amazon. Indeed, terra preta is valuable enough that locals sell it as potting soil. To the consternation of archaeologists, long planters full of terra preta, complete with pieces of pre-Columbian pottery, greet visitors to the airport in the lower Amazon town of Santarém.

As a rule, terra preta has more “plant-available” phosphorus, calcium, sulfur, and nitrogen than surrounding oxisols; it also has much more organic matter, retains moisture and nutrients better, and is not rapidly exhausted by agricultural use when managed well.

The key to terra preta's long-term fertility, Glaser says, is charcoal: Terra preta contains up to 70 times as much as adjacent oxisols. “The charcoal prevents organic matter from being rapidly mineralized,” Glaser says. “Over time, it partly oxidizes, which keeps providing sites for nutrients to bind to.” But simply mixing charcoal into the ground is not enough to create terra preta. Because charcoal contains few nutrients, Glaser says, “high nutrient inputs via excrement and waste such as turtle, fish, and animal bones were necessary.” Special soil microorganisms are also likely to play a role in its persistent fertility, in the view of Janice Thies, a soil ecologist who is part of a Cornell University team studying terra preta. “There are indications that microbial biomass is higher in terra preta,” she says, which raises the possibility that scientists might be able to create a “package” of charcoal, nutrients, and microfauna that could be used to transform oxisols into terra preta.

Michael