Terra Preta - The parent thread which started it all

[Racoon]

Originally Posted by Turtle

___I have watched a PBS (Public Broadcasting Service US) show on a fella who mixes up custom fertilizer and/or insecticide using dish soap, household ammonia, soda pop, beer, and/or tobacco 'stew' in a garden-hose sprayer. Soda provides sugars, beer provides enzymes, ammonio provides nitogen. dish soap promotes even spreading, & insects don't like tobacco.

Jerry Baker; I believe is his name-o...
I love that guy.
I wish I had his books.

I think you forgot the cup of Urine, preferably from a "drunk guy" as an ingredient.
Seriously. (he made the joke as he said it )
There are several formulas, depending on your needs.

Dirt is Great!

[Michaelangelica]

This is the bit about plant/carbon resins.

Is this why activated carbon would be no good?
Could it have some use?
(If not, pitty, as I've just found a source for it "Barmac" seels "Pickup" for greenkeepers to use on grass. It is so fine it can be sprayed on in a water slurry)

"How does this work?
What the soil scientists, working with microbiologists, discovered was that a community of bacteria exists in symbiosis with the root hairs of plants. The bacteria produce enzymes that release the mineral ions trapped by the heat stabilized plant resins in the charcoal and make it available to the root hairs of the plant as nutrients. In return, the plants secrete nourishment for the bacteria. Not only that, but the resins within the charcoal act like an ion exchange resin, adsorbing traces of mineral ions onto the charcoal particle surfaces from the rain water, and trapping it within the charcoal's molecular structure, where it can be held for centuries - until the soil bacteria associated with a root hair come along and secrete the enzymes necessary for it to be released once again. So the trace minerals always present in rainwater actually act as a fertilizer - providing the nutrients needed by the crops, year after year. The secret of the soil fertility of the terra preta was finally understood"

and also:

"Bio-char seems to have another interesting property: it seems to "stimulate" AMF.
The idea that the application of charcoal stimulates indigenous arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi (AMF) in soil and thus promotes plant growth is relatively well-known in Japan, "
Both quotes from an excellent article (that even tries (but fails) to explain the hydrogen story/link to me)
it is a great article I recommend it to you
http://www.garyjones.org/mt/archives/000273.html

[Charcoal]

Low temperature woody charcoal (not grass or high cellulose) has an
interior layer of bio-oil condensates that microbes consume and is
equal to glucose in its effect on microbial growth (Christoph Steiner,
EACU 2004). High temp char loses this layer and does not promote soil
fertility very well.

The bio-oil condensates indeed favor some microbes and the oil can be utilized as easily degradable substrate. The combination of an easily degradable substrate with a recalcitrant substrate (charcoal) is interesting. I like a mixture of charcoal and chicken manure best! And mimics the adjectives of Terra Preta closest. These bio-oils are used in agriculture as pesticides, fertilizer mainly in Asia (Japan, China) and Brazil (Pirolenhoso). Providers of this product promise many advantages but research is needed to prove its suitability. Future developments will isolate certain effective compounds from the smoke. Today the bio-oils are called wood vinegar and the mixture consists of hundreds of different molecules (each source of biomass different) just as the charcoal is different. The future is bio- not petro-

... Evidence of terra preta's ability to
grow and sequester more carbon was undercovered by soil scientist
William Woods (U.Illinois). The work is still under investigation in
Brazil by over the last 20 years mining terra preta for potting soil
has not decreased its availability. Farmers have learned it recovers a
centimeter per year. The possibility those small fractions of char
continually migrate down, providing housing for microbes as they
process surface-cover biomass. The microbes and fungi live and die
inside the porous media increasing its carbon content.[/QUOTE]

Well there are nutrient poor dark soils too. Organic matter can grow but nutrients not. Growing nutrient contents without external inputs would be alchemy. Charcoal can not "grow" and each mining of Terra Preta would delute the charcoal in the soil. For the tropics refractory soil organic matter is already a great deal and increases the soil?s ability to store nutrients, the water holing capacity among many other advantages. But this is not yet a ?Terra Preta?.

[Charcoal]

[QUOTE=Michaelangelica]

Is this why activated carbon would be no good?
Could it have some use?

Both quotes from an excellent article (that even tries (but fails) to explain the hydrogen story/link to me)

Charcoal's response:

Charcoal response: Activated charcoal is good but too expensive and the conversion efficiency is low (only about 10% of the carbon in the wood remains as carbon in the charcoal). Is difficult to establish "slash and char" as charcoal has a fuel value. Non fuel charcoal use (for soil) needs to be cheap otherwise charcoal will be burned. One good option to increase the value of non fuel use could be carbon trade (carbon credits). Currently CO2 is traded in Europe for more than 25 EURO per ton. One ton of charcoal is approximately 3 tons of CO2 equivalent (assuming 75% C content of charcoal). This is about double the value charcoal is soled in the Brazilian Amazon. Such a carbon trade mechanism would also provide a strong incentive to avoid further deforestation; because re-growing biomass must be used (a farmer would loose 50% of the C in primary forest, converting it to charcoal ant thus reducing his carbon credits). It is a pity that soil carbon and charcoal is not acknowleged as carbon sink in the Kyoto protocol and therefore no option for trade. Further values added to charcoal production are products like Ammonia and bio-diesel. For the production of fuel and fertilizer the hydrogen is needed (Just like the petro-chemistry is doing today, separation and synthesis of valuable hydrocarbons).

[Turtle]

Originally Posted by Michaelangelica

I'll take your word for it. It sound like a great way to go. I wish I was there helping you construct. Can you take photos as you go; rather than just of the finished solar 'still'? please?

Roger Wilco Photo below is 4" diameter galvanized steel stovepipe ($4.49), & a galvanized steel cap ($2.79), both painted with high-temp flat black paint ($2.19). Yard stick marked in inches for scale.
I have it out in the Sun with some coffee grounds stuffed in & a cooking thermometer stuck in to get a baseline temp without the parabolic reflector. Photos of the reflector's construction to follow when available.

Edit: Construction discussion moved to :
Solar Parabolic Trough Charcoal Oven

[Michaelangelica]

'Issues in "Tera preta

Seems there are a lot of conversations going on here about different aspects of Tera Preta. Aspects I am just becoming aware of.
I thought I would try to sort them out with the help of 'www garryjones.org'

1 Advantages of Tera preta gardening/ farming tecniques to soil-
a) Better water holding capacity
b) Increase tilth
c) Less fertiliser needed by
i) Capturing nutrients-trace minerals- in rainwater
ii) Increases plant nutrient uptake (cation exchange capacity)
iii) Increases microbial activity (& therefore soil fertility)
iv) Decrease of nutrient leaching
v) Increases nitrogen uptake
vi) Charchol is rich in potassium salts
d) Decrease of nutrient run-off and therefore pollution of lakes/ rivers
e) Increase crop and biomass yields.
f) Reduces farm input costs (fertiliser, water)
g) Provides sustainable production systems that minimise pollution and soil degradation.
h) Soil seems to "re-grow"
i) Can restore degraded topsoil

2 Disadvatages of Terra preta methods to soil
a) may increase soil ph
b) rich in potassium salts

2 Ecological advantages
a) Provides long-term sequestration of carbon
b) Can provide very significant counter to human-caused carbon emissions
c) Widespread use could therefore change climate.
d) can restore degraded topsoil

3 Ecological disadvantages
a) Widespread use could change climate (It depends on weather you believe the earth-climate is in a warming or cooling phase.)


4 Power production implications
a) "Pyrolysis" Technology (low temperature) can produce oil, hydrogen or electricity using various plants such as wood chips and sugarcane bagasse. In turn producing carbon for Terra preta farming and gardening.
b) "Syngas"
"Recent developments have taught us how to produce charchol plus a hydrogen-rich "syngas for ammonia synthesis and fuel production." gary jones.org
c) ? charcoal used to clean up power plant exhaust "wile removing CO2, SOx and NOx from coal power plant exhaust the charcoal is enriched with nitrogen crating asoil amendment fertiliser" garyjones

4 How do you make charcoal (low temp. needed -'probably')
a) solar burner ( see previous posts)
b) Coppicing
c) Burning farm/garden waste without oxygen (Covering with sods of grass?)

5 Soil Microorganisms Terra preta teaches the importance of these
a) Can be purchased.
b) How do you make your own for home/garden?-compost soups, bio dynamics etc
c) Stimulates Indigenous Arbuscular Fungi (AMF) in soil
d) stimulates rhizobia


6 Other questions?? (add your own)
CO2 Exchange, Carbon Credits Kyoto protocols??
Is Tera preta unique to Amazon because of a unique suite of microorganisms?
Can it work it my pots at home?
How much charcoal should I use in Potting Mix in pots?
Should farmers Green mnaure crops or make charcoal from bio mas?
(Some sugarcane farmers burn some don't- burnt practices slightly increase soil fertility going against coventional wiasdom ie not-burning less polluting)

What sort of charcoal?
IS "BBQ Charcoal" as good as "Horticultural Charcoal" or "Activated Charcoal"?

Perhaps we can 'flag' which aspect of the conversation we are responding to in the headding eg., Terra preta (. . . ) (-the story so far)?

[Michaelangelica]

I was wandering arround the Permaculture forums and came accross this post which is interesting.
You should vist the site if you are into useful plants and gardening. It's great
SEE:
http://forums.permaculture.org.au/vi...?p=18201#18201

Re: Terra Preta What is the fuction of the clay pottery shards?

"PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2006 11:26 pm
On reading about the actual terra preta mix and process there are a lot of questions about the presence of clay shards. I havent even read any speculation as to why they are there.
Two, things spring to mind.

Firstly, the ancients may have been carting this soil to other areas or water to that site but woven baskets would have been more feasible for the soil.

Secondly and more likely, possibly part of the reason for the burning was that this was the place that clay was fired. Once a pot was broken they could have been smashed over time or used as 'heat beads' in the next firing. The refined pottery we use is fired at incredible temperatures, this may not have been known to these people and their climate was not condusive to sun drying [which can take months].

Just idle speculation I doubt the ancients would have deliberately tried build soils but they may have been building pots and stumbled across a symbiosis in their process which lead to the terra preta.

I would love more speculation or clarification if anyone has tracked down why the clay shards appear through this mix. The show I saw on terra preta didnt mention them, only found it in further reading.

Cheers

Floot
_________________


Post to permaculture from Michaelangelica

The question, Why clay? is a fascinating one that I don't think has been answered.
It is only associated with terra preta soils and no where else.
I haven't read the book yet so don't know if the clay was porous like terracotta or hard 'stoneware'. I am guessing terracotta.

I guess (hypothesise) two reasons:
1. The clay somehow acts as a catalyst for the whole microbiological thing.
and/or
2. It allows bacteria in the soil to breathe. You can still buy in some places terracotta balls to plant orchids in. I note some American Orchid mixes use charcoal and clay
Would you mind if I posted this and your question on Hypography?
This thread is located at:
http://hypography.com/forums/earth-s...-new-post.html


From floot to michaelangelica

Michaelangelica, feel free to cross post to another forum. Just ask that you post the thread link too and invite some of your posters over here.

I speculated as to how the clay got there. You have speculated as to what it does. I have a BD article saved that I found some years ago which may give further insight into what clay does. BD folk believe that clay acts as a conduit from the depths to the plants.

Welcome over here, I did follow the links to your forum and found it very interesting.

Ok, the original article which I saved is still available on the net and is too big to post here. I am not a BD'er but as a kid I saw an ABC doco on Alex Podolinksy which to my 9yo mind was as amazing as the moon landing. Add to this the discovery of Walter Rodale's Organic Gardening and it has formed a lifelong interest.

http://lists.ifas.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa...anet-mg&P=6549

Cheers

floot
_________________
I have never understood Bio-dynamics. It always seemed quasi-religious-gardening but "Stranger things. . . "as the bard says. . .
The above web site is facinating -this is a quote from it-
"Steiner touched on the importance of clay as a mediator between the lime and silica poles of nature. He emphasized clay's primary role in conducting the silica forces, which develop deep within the earth, upward for plant development towards fruit and seed.
He said in lecture two that later he would give recommendations for treating clay to better conduct the growth forces welling out of the earth. However, later he failed to do so.

"Let me remark here that if we are dealing with a soil that does not carry these influences upward during the winter as it should, it is good to furnish that soil with some clay, the dosage of which I will indicate later."
--Rudolf Steiner"

[gost]

Oh man, am I glad I found you guys! I've been trying to figure out how to make terra preta since I saw the BBC documentary a couple of weeks ago and just ran across your forum during a google search.

Michaelangelica- I ran across the article by Scott Bidstrup, apparently quoted on the Gary Jones site, where he contemplated building a solar oven for making low temp charcoal. He seemed to feel that the trough of the reflector needed to be about 8 to 10 feet wide in order to achieve the 470 F needed to make the charcoal. It almost seems like he is guessing at this, but I can't tell for sure. It seems awfully big to me, especially since Bidstrup is in Costa Rica, but I don't have any experience with this type of collector. Are you basing your design on an existing concept that has calculated the temps for different latitudes? Is there a simple formula for calculating the parabola? I'm very excited to follow your results.

My thought was to cut two pieces of half inch plywood into the parabolic shape, making the ends of the trough, then simply use a staple gun to attach the mylar posterboard to the edges of the plywood, thus eliminating the need for any ribs. The pipe itself would then go through oversized holes in the plywood, at the height of the focal point, where it would then be kept from touching the wood by the use of 3 adjustment screws.

I had also been planning on using galvanized stovepipe, of the kind used for gas water heaters. Does anybody know if the galvinizing might introduce anything toxic, when heated, that might absorb into the charcoal?

On another note, I'm having trouble with the concept that all the nutrients taken up by my veggies could be replenished by just rainwater alone on any sustainable basis. Is this really credible? In the Amazon, it must be possible to grow crops on a year-round basis. That's a huge amount of nutrient removal to expect to be replaced simply by rainwater alone, especially with the claims of a 300 percent increase in productivity with terra preta. Has anyone run across any real research to support this idea of rainwater as fertilizer?

As far as the microorganisms involved in terra preta, does anyone know if they are particular to the tropics? Might the organisms involved here be similar to the biotic community found in any well maintained compost pile? I currently make two types of organic compost: regular and vermiculture (worms). My thought was to replace some or all of the browns in my regular compost with finely ground charcoal made from chipped fruit tree prunings, woody brush, and alder branches. That way the charcoal would perhaps already be hosting a microbial population when I add it to my garden soils. Any thoughts on this idea? If the community is more specific, could real terra preta perhaps be used as a microbial starter? I read that Amazonian locals have been selling terra preta as potting mix for years. Does anyone know of an internet source for buying a real sample of this stuff?

As far as the charcoal itself, is there a difference between wood based charcoal and that made from garden material, such as, for instance, corn stalks? Are the resins involved any different? It seems to me that if the ancient Amazonians were making their charcoal from the material derived from clearing the land itself, it would have been mostly made from tropical hardwoods.

I'm not sure what the pottery might have added to the whole mix, but I do know a couple of potters that always have a pile of broken pots laying around who would be more than happy to get rid of the stuff. As I recall, their initial firing of the clay, before the final glaze firing, is done at a relatively low temp. Perhaps broken bits from that firing would be more akin to the shards found in the Amazonian sites.

LOL. I have about a million more questions, but I better leave it at this for now. Gardening season is just getting started here in the Pacific NW where I live and I can't wait to do some experimentation. Thanks to everyone that's been posting to this thread. I'm glad to learn that I'm not alone in the level of excitement generated by the potential implications of this new/old technology.

[Turtle]

Originally Posted by gost

Michaelangelica- I ran across the article by Scott Bidstrup, apparently quoted on the Gary Jones site, where he contemplated building a solar oven for making low temp charcoal. He seemed to feel that the trough of the reflector needed to be about 8 to 10 feet wide in order to achieve the 470 F needed to make the charcoal. ... Are you basing your design on an existing concept that has calculated the temps for different latitudes? Is there a simple formula for calculating the parabola? I'm very excited to follow your results.

My thought was to cut two pieces of half inch plywood into the parabolic shape, making the ends of the trough, then simply use a staple gun to attach the mylar posterboard to the edges of the plywood, thus eliminating the need for any ribs. The pipe itself would then go through oversized holes in the plywood, at the height of the focal point, where it would then be kept from touching the wood by the use of 3 adjustment screws.

I had also been planning on using galvanized stovepipe, of the kind used for gas water heaters. Does anybody know if the galvinizing might introduce anything toxic, when heated, that might absorb into the charcoal?

Here is the thread on the solar oven.
Solar Parabolic Trough Charcoal Oven

Until it's finished I have no idea how hot it will get. You can post further or unanswered questions on the oven there.

[Michaelangelica]

Originally Posted by gost

Oh man, am I glad I found you guys!
Scott Bidstrup, apparently quoted on the Gary Jones site, where he contemplated building a solar oven for making low temp charcoal.

A- Turtle has just started to build his and is just getting started. He has promised to keep us posted. I think the inspiration for it is the Bidstrup article.

Originally Posted by gost

On another note, I'm having trouble with the concept that all the nutrients taken up by my veggies could be replenished by just rainwater alone on any sustainable basis. Is this really credible?

Yes, as I understand it, to some small extent. There is a reduced need for crop rotation, fertilisers and soil "re-grows" within 10-20 years.

Originally Posted by gost

As far as the microorganisms involved in terra preta, does anyone know if they are particular to the tropics?

A-No one knows yet

Originally Posted by gost

Might the organisms involved here be similar to the biotic community found in any well maintained compost pile?

See my post on making your own bacterial/compost sludge (The article at the marijuana site is good if you can find it

Originally Posted by gost

That way the charcoal would perhaps already be hosting a microbial population when I add it to my garden soils.Any thoughts on this idea?

A- Sounds good. Can you experiment and report back?

Originally Posted by gost

If the community is more specific, could real terra preta perhaps be used as a microbial starter? I read that Amazonian locals have been selling terra preta as potting mix for years. Does anyone know of an Internet source for buying a real sample of this stuff?

A- Now there is a business opportunity! see also the posts on
indigenous arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi (AMF). These can be purchased. Google it.

Originally Posted by gost

As far as the charcoal itself, is there a difference between wood based charcoal and that made from garden material,

A- The resins seem to be important for the bacteria to latch on to and for the chemical processes involved. I don't know if anyone has sorted out what biomass is best yet.

Originally Posted by gost

of broken pots laying around who would be more than happy to get rid of the stuff. As I recall, their initial firing of the clay,

A-I would be grabbing it and adding it

Originally Posted by gost

I can't wait to do some experimentation. Thanks to everyone that's been posting to this thread. I'm glad to learn that I'm not alone in the level of excitement generated by the potential implications of this new/old technology.

Keep experimenting- let us know? Try differnt charchols, different levels of pottery. Hell anything you want, but keep talking & sharing!

Can anyone get a copy of the book " Amazonian Dark Earth's. . ." by Lehmann et al? It costs a fortune I don't think I can find one here.

I have started a couple of experiments and will report when I can take and post some photos
Glad to have you on board gost!