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Old 05-20-2006   22 links from elsewhere to this Post. Click to view. #81 (permalink)
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Smile Re: Terra Preta Great web site

WOW
Look at this site!


http://www.energy.gatech.edu/presentations/dday.pdf

Lots of pretty pictures
Lots of fascinating graphs
Lots of biomass-hydrogen designs (Which I don't understand)
It took me an age to download (I don't have broadband but it was worth it)
Just for the picture of the sick tree that was fixed in 6 mths with charcoal !. Great stuff


Some quotes:
Other charcoal benefits
• Surface oxidation of the char increased the cation exchange capacity (Glaser)
(er. . . what is "cation exchange capacity"-m)

• Char increased available water holding capacity by more than 18% of
surrounding soils (Glaser)
(my question in my last post answered-m)

• Char experiments have shown up to 266% more biomass growth (2nd Yr
Steiner) and 324% (Kishimoto and Sugiura)

• Plant nitrogen uptake doubled in charcoal amended soils (Steiner)

• Charcoal has proven to help reduce farm chemical runoff (Yelverton)

Smoke from smoldering fires represents lost energy that can produce hydrogen.--�� A sustainable hydrogen supply cannot be separated from agriculture as it forms a key link to delivered soil nitrogen��
Under modern agriculture, hydrogen is used to make ammonia fertilizer which is used for food production.
(i.e. Hydrogen=Food)
Asada reported that Asada reported that carboxyl acid groups formations natural to low
temperature charcoal (below 500 C) bind ammonia exceptionally well

Chars were produced at 900, 600, 500, 450, and 400C.
�� Crushed and sieved to #30 mesh, wt 20g.
�� Soaked 5 min. in 48% NH4NO3 solution.
�� Each rinse = 100 ml water 8.0 pH
Most stabilized after a few rinses
But chars produced 400 C very gradually released its ammonia

Michael


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Last edited by Michaelangelica; 05-20-2006 at 09:17 AM..
Old 05-21-2006   #82 (permalink)
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Re: Terra Preta in general

Michael-

On Sugar- Sugar is much too valuable to add to the soil. Better to use it to make fuel alcohol, which is something else I've been working on.

On Temperature- I think that low temperatures are best for ADE charcoal as it then retains more of the plant resins that are used in binding the nitrogen.

On Nematodes- Yes, I'd like to read the "Quirky Science Fact." Beneficial nematodes are an important part of healthy organic soils and I'm sure are found in abundance in Terra Preta.

On Charcoal- I don't see why coconut charcoal wouldn't work just fine if you can get it cheap enough. One of the questions I have about the Amazonian charcoal if whether it's made from hardwoods, and whether the resulting resins might be different in various materials. I've read that alder is the preferred wood for making charcoal for use in forges, followed by mountain ash, and oak, but I don't know how that would relate to what we are doing here.

Coal is NOT the same as charcoal. Not only does it contain various percentages of sulfur and other chemicals, but it also has a lot of flammable volatiles, which is what helps it to burn. Coal is made when anaerobic pete bogs are subducted and put under heat and pressure for a few millenia. Coal is around 90% carbon, with the rest made up by the other chemicals. Probably not at all good to put in your garden soil. When the volatiles are removed, the resulting product is called "coke," and it burns cleaner than coal but needs a strong bellows to keep it going.

Regular charcoal briquettes are not a good substitute for ADE charcoal either. They are made from a combination of sawdust charcoal and coal, and sometimes petroleum coke, which can be high in heavy metals. Most of the volatiles and other chemicals actually burn away before you start cooking, but they would still be present if you ground them up and put them in your garden. Kingsford charcoal briquettes are made from: powdered charcoal, anthracite coal, limestone, starch (as a binder), sawdust, and sodium nitrate and a few other ingredients. I've just heard recently, however, that WalMart and Home Depot here in the US both carry what is called "Lump Charcoal," which is the pure stuff, no additives, and it is available in various kinds of wood: hickory, mesquite, oak, etc. You can find a bunch of other brands online as well. A little too expensive to suit me.

On Clays and Kitty Litter- I'm not sure about the kind of kitty litter you get, but my experience is that the stuff is simply made from dry clay, not kiln fired. When it gets wet, after a while it just turns back into sticky clay, which would not be good for a garden unless you need to slow down your drainage. I thought I'd check with my local nurseries to see if they have any broken terra cota flowerpots they'd like to get rid of.

I had already read that same paper about the mineral composition of the ADE pottery that you posted, but I don't know enough about pottery to see how this compares to terra cota. Some of the pictures I've seen of it though, looks just like it. That's what I'm going to use.

On Water- I just made up a batch of home-made Terra Preta and the very first thing I noticed is that it holds a heck of a lot of water when you get it wet. It took a little time before the water started soaking in, but the stuff holds it like a sponge. I've set a wet pot of it out in the sun to see how long it takes to dry out compared to my regular compost. I think it's going to be really good for water conservation.

Here's a pic of the stuff I made:

Attached Thumbnails
Terra Preta - The parent thread which started it all-ade_samp.jpg  
Old 05-21-2006   #83 (permalink)
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Smile Re: Terra Preta discussion

gost-
Thanks for your long and detailed reply

alpaca poo??
You really are tying to keep it ethnically pure !

Temperature
The last website I posted had an interesting graph:-
275-400c best to maximise carbon storage for mankind and optimal zone for energy extraction
400-600C best for microbial life but complete devloatilization -requires addition of energy &/or oxygen
400C chars very gradually released its ammonia
I can't see how Amazonian Indians could control temperature anyway. Perhaps they had a mixture of all temps?? or Perhaps good coppicing results in ideal temperature just because of the way it is done.??

Thanks for sorting me out on coal and briquettes. I didn't think they would work. It goes against the whole tenant of Terra preta' environmetal ++ss anyhow.

Clay
Kitty Litter is Attapulgite or the clumping one is bentonite.
(a perfumer friend put me on to it can be used as a fixative to hold perumes. It can be used in sachets etc)
Both are supposed to be activated clays (whatever that means)
Attapulgite holds moisture and is a clay. It should work in potting mixes. I am experimenting to find out.
There used to be big terracotta potteries here with huge piles of broken "waste" sigh. .
But a Global Economy" and the Chinese & Italians have put them out of business. Strangely now it is hard to find a good selection of Terracotta plant pots in Nurseries. I have always preferred them for my herbs as most (thyme, sage rosemary etc) prefer a drish well drained environment.
Perhaps there was a reason Old Gardiners' invented Terracotta. The history of such pots must go back to Roman times?? I will google it one day and see.
I saw advertised on USA Garden Products web sites terracotta balls and orchid mixes with terracotta added. What country are you from?

Water
I agree about the water, 17% better soil water holding capacity is the figure from above web site. In pots it could be better.
Politically and economically water is becoming a major issue here.
With local dams down to 19% capacity, we water the garden by hand from now on.

I live in hope that my orchids(usually half dead-I'm not an orchid person, but having spent scandalous amounts of money on them I would like them to survive) will thrive in my new mix of wood (ie basic orchid potting mix), charcoal, and Attapulgite.


Find "Quirky Science Facts" by putting that in the search box at the top of the page. Go to the last 4-5 posts. You might enjoy browsing around the Hypography site I do. Try "forums' to go to areas that mainly interest you.
I recommend the first page of "Quality Jokes" apart from my posts, of course, it is all downhill from there.

Love the pics. will post some when I work out how.


We must have nearly sorted this Terra preta thing by now, apart from details.
I have some Google alerts going and will report on anything new they show up. (They do miss some/many things)
and will post results of my experiments.
My next job is to proselytise this to the Aussie farming community I don't know how I do that.
At the moment Australia is shipping thousands of ships full of old growth forest chips to Japan. The Japanese must be laughing up their sleeves at us for letting such a valuable resource (even if we burnt it!) go so cheaply.
sigh. . . again.

Thanks for your valuable posts. It is wonderful to have someone to bounce ideas off. This is not the sort of discussion you can have at the Pub:- "G'day, how's yea'r terry prety go'n Bruce"'
--
Michael


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Last edited by Michaelangelica; 05-21-2006 at 10:31 PM..
Old 05-22-2006   #84 (permalink)
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Smile Re: Terra Preta new popular article

Yeat another article in the popular press.
Good, but not much that is new
Some quotes
http://www.deltafarmpress.com/news/051114-terra-preta/
Lehman is being interviewed by By David Bennettfrom from "The Farm Press"

Among the most important properties are high nutrient concentrations (especially for calcium and phosphorus). Most likely, this is linked to a unique utilization of agricultural and fishery waste products.

"We believe that fish residues are an important portion of the high phosphorus concentrations. Phosphorus is really the number one limiting nutrient in the central Amazon.

What were the Indians growing? Tree crops? Row crops?

"There has been some pollen analysis. It suggests manioc and maize were being grown 2,000 to 3,000 years ago. In the pollen bank, these crops didn�t pop up sporadically but in large numbers.

"But all kinds of crops were grown by the Indians. Palm trees, under-story fruit trees, Brazil nut trees all were very important

On the differences between slash-and-burn and slash-and-char agriculture�

"We have very good indications that the Amerindian populations couldn�t have practiced slash-and-burn and created these soils.

"It�s also highly unlikely that a population relying on stone axes would have practiced slash-and-burn anyway. The normal soils are so poor that with a single slash-and-burn event, you can only crop without fertilizer for two years at most. Then the soil has to be left fallow again.

�Primary forest trees have a diameter of 2 or 3 meters. If all you had was a stone ax in your hand, you�d find a different way to deal with agriculture than felling these huge trees every two years.

�The difference between (the two systems) is the slash-and-char wouldn�t burn in an open fire. Charcoal would be produced under partial exclusion of oxygen. We envision that happening by natives covering up piled up logs with dirt and straw. These charcoal-making systems are still being used around the world

How close are researchers to duplicating terra preta?


�We�re working intensively. We don�t need to take any terra preta anywhere. What we want to do is become knowledgeable about how terra preta was created and then create it elsewhere with local resources.

�Research on this is ongoing in Columbia, in Kenya. I have research colleagues in Japan and Indonesia also working on this. At the moment, there is a lot of excitement but there�s a lot of work to do.�

How terra preta could help industrialized countries�


"We envision systems based on some of the principles of terra preta. And this isn�t just for tropical agriculture. This could be very important for U.S. agriculture.

"Terra Preta could mean a reduction in environmental pollution. What works as a retaining mechanism in Amazonia could work in the United States where there are concerns of phosphates and nitrates entering groundwater and streams. We have only begun to realize the potential of how this could reduce pollution in industrialized countries.

Luckily the principles of creating bio-char soils will be very similar no matter what area of the world you're in. Results obtained in Brazil will be pertinent for the United States.

In terms of widespread adoption, it's still some way away. There are still knowledge gaps. For instance, we know there are important differences in the effects of bio-char on soil fertility depending on what material you use and what temperature and under what conditions the char is produced. That's something we should be able to resolve within a year or two. Once that's done, we can take the systems to Extension Services around the world and make larger scale, on-farm research plots.
....................................


m, me-
I would love to know what the Japanese Soil Scientists are up too.
They may have been using charchol for a very long time in their agriculture.
Know any way we can get Japanese research?


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Old 05-24-2006   #85 (permalink)
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Re: Terra Preta discussion

LOL about the alpaca poop, Michael. I like the stuff not only because it seems appropriate to making Amazonian soil, but because it's high in N and you can use it directly on plants without it burning, much like rabbit manure. Not only that, but I have a neighbor who raises alpacas and is happy to get rid of the waste. I add it into my compost pile and figure the extra microbes can only help the process.

As far as where I live, I'm in the upper right hand corner of the US, about 75 miles north of Seattle, Washington, in a rural area just below the Canadian border. My wife and I own six acres of land in the hills where we play at organic gardening, amongst other things.

Those are some good links you've come up with, Michael, as always. I've run across the Eprida site before and find it pretty interesting. I don't know quite what to make of the charcoal temperature business and how to apply it here, but here is a quote from the author of that presentation, Danny Day, in another article, specifically about Terra Preta:

" The initial phase of the meetings started with a review of the current
knowledge of man made soils called terra preta occupying an area of
the Amazon that total to twice the size of Britain. Carbon was added
to these soils in the form of a low temperature charcoal. Using low
intensity smoldering fires created these charcoals. By analysis, we
can tell that they were created 1000-2000 years ago and were part of a
soil management practice designed to take a yellow clay soil of
limited biological productivity and convert it into some of the
richest soil in the world. A thousand years after its creation it is
so well known in Brazil, that it is dug up and sold as potting soil. . .

". . . Low temperature woody charcoal (not grass or high cellulose) has an interior layer of bio-oil condensates that microbes consume and is
equal to glucose in its effect on microbial growth (Christoph Steiner,
EACU 2004). High temp char loses this layer and does not promote soil
fertility very well."

The implication is that the charcoal was produced at low temps, but he doesn't state the exact temperature range. None the less, it seems probable that because the ADE soils have a fair amount of "brown" (incompletely charred) charcoal present, it can be inferred that the temps must have been in the lowest ranges of charcoal conversion.

The temperatures that I'm using are much lower that the Eprida temps you posted above. I'm trying to stay within the range of 470-500F (240-260C), with the idea that preserving the bio-resins and oils is extremely important in the regulation of N, as indicated in the literature.

I got a kick out of the idea of discussing Terra Preta with the boys at the pub. Last weekend, while I was making charcoal, my neighbor Auggie, a retired logger who we buy eggs from, stopped by.

"Howdy neighbor," he said. "Watcha doin'? Fixin' to smoke some fish?"

"Naw," I said. "I'm trying to make some charcoal."

"Oh." Long pause. "How come? You gonna have a barbecue?"

"No, I need a special kind of charcoal to make something called Terra Preta."

"Oh." Another long pause. "That some kind of Mexican dish?"

"No, It's a type of soil that the people in the Amazon used to make to grow their food in."

"So . . . you're makin' dirt?"

"Yep."

"How come? Don't you have enough already?"

"Well, yeah, but you know, making Terra Preta just might be a way to help solve the problem of global warming. I'm just playing around with the idea."

"So . . . you're makin' charcoal, to make some dirt so you can fix global warming?"

"Yeah, something like that?"

"Well, ain't that something!" Long pause. "Say, you got any more of that home-made raspberry wine in the fridge?"

"Sure Auggie, help yourself."

Around here, everyone's used to my crazy notions. I'm known as the mad scientist/songwriter/farmer/computer geek with the loud electric guitar and the finest raspberry wine ever made. I owe it all to alpaca poop, I tell them.
Old 05-24-2006   #86 (permalink)
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Re: Terra Preta discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by gost
As far as where I live, I'm in the upper right hand corner of the US, about 75 miles north of Seattle, Washington, in a rural area just below the Canadian border. My wife and I own six acres of land in the hills where we play at organic gardening, amongst other things.

"Well, ain't that something!" Long pause. "Say, you got any more of that home-made raspberry wine in the fridge?"

"Sure Auggie, help yourself."

Around here, everyone's used to my crazy notions. I'm known as the mad scientist/songwriter/farmer/computer geek with the loud electric guitar and the finest raspberry wine ever made. I owe it all to alpaca poop, I tell them.
You gotta love the Pacific Northwest for the friendly people. (Even a recluse notices ) I used to go up to an annual kite retreat at Fort Warden years ago. I have to ask if you were looking South or standing on your head gost when you said 'upper right hand corner of US"?
On the charcoal, are you grinding it up too? How fine & by what means?
Gettin' Pestle Elbow,
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Old 05-24-2006   #87 (permalink)
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Re: Terra Preta discussion

Oooops! Too much raspberry wine, plus I think I'm geographically dyslexic. Upper LEFT. On the upper LEFT coast of the US. Come to think of it, wouldn't it be on Michael's RIGHT, since he lives south of the equator, and therefore standing on HIS head?

As far as grinding the charcoal, I used the rock that you see in the upper part of the pic I posted above. The stuff powderized very easily and you could pretty much do it with your fingers if you didn't mind the mess. The flower pot took a little more work.
Old 05-24-2006   #88 (permalink)
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Re: Terra Preta discussion- a personal digression

Quote:
Originally Posted by gost
Oooops! Too much raspberry wine, plus I think I'm geographically dyslexic. Upper LEFT. On the upper LEFT coast of the US. Come to think of it, wouldn't it be on Michael's RIGHT, since he lives south of the equator, and therefore standing on HIS head?
Far too much raspberry wine
My wife would kill for Raspberry wine.
Many years ago travelling in Italy, with children aged 2 and 7, she saw raspberries everywhere. (We were staying in a little hotel near Venice)
She tried to order some. Could not find the word.
Her schoolgirl Latin desserted her (pardon the pun)
Caesar apparently never crossed swords with a raspberry.
The closest we got was "Cassis"
She (wife) was not impressed but the kids loved it.
It was some time before we worked out why we had such silly,merry, hyperactive kids after dinner every night.

A friend, a Qantas engineer of long standing, was sent to Seattle, for a year, to watch Boeing build Qantas a plane.
His wife and he said that of all the places in the world they had visited, ( a lot working for Qantas), they would happily live in Seattle. Seattle sounds great (They were picked as Aussies immediately as they tried to put their washing out in the sun to dry.)
Now, for an Australian, that is shockingly high praise. Contrary to the belief of US customs, not everyone is trying to sneak over to the States to live. (Which is the way they made us feel when we visited). Apart from minor aberrations like "Crocodile Dundee" we have been trying to keep Australia a secret.
Which when I travelled was easy.
Americans get very confused by concepts like Geography.( eg your last post-the prosecution rests)
"You speak lovely English for an Austrian"

"What do you do in Australia"
"O, we run a nursery"
"What made you start a nursery in Australia?
"Um . . well . . um. . we were born there!".
"O, I didn't know people were actually born there.!!??
"ummmmm . . . . . . . . .. . . ."

Give me a stack of bibles I swear both encounters were true.
The first one several times. The last is etched in memory.

I LOL at your encounter with your neighbour.
The question is how do you convince him you are not a nut case?
Pehaps you need to grow bigger raspberries or whatever.
--
Michael


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Old 05-24-2006   #89 (permalink)
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Smile Re: Terra Preta increases "cation exchange capacity"

I looked up cation exchange capacity on the web and found all the uni notes incomprehensible. how does anyone pass? I guess they study chemistry at school for a start.
I also guess, if I understood this, I might figure out why some of my soil has a Ph of 9

This was one of the better ones from Washington State Uni
http://soils.tfrec.wsu.edu/webnutrit...rops/04CEC.htm


Cation-Ex
change Capacity
(CEC)

Cation-exchange capacity is defined as the degree to which a soil can adsorb and exchange cations.

Cation-a positively charged ion (NH4 +, K+, Ca2+, Fe2+, etc...)

Anion-a negatively charged ion (NO3 -, PO42-, SO42-, etc...)

Soil particles and organic matter have negative charges on their surfaces. Mineral cations can adsorb to the negative surface charges or the inorganic and organic soil particles. Once adsorbed, these minerals are not easily lost when the soil is leached by water and they also provide a nutrient reserve available to plant roots.

These minerals can then be replaced or exchanged by other cations (i.e., cation exchange)

Top of page

CEC is highly dependent upon soil texture and organic matter content. In general, the more clay and organic matter in the soil, the higher the CEC. Clay content is important because these small particles have a high ration of surface area to volume. Different types of clays also vary in CEC. Smectites have the highest CEC (80-100 millequivalents 100 g-1), followed by illites (15-40 meq 100 g-1) and kaolinites (3-15 meq 100 g-1).

Examples of CEC values for different soil textures are as follows:

Soil texture

CEC (meq/100g soi)
Sands (light-colored) 3-5
Sands (dark-colored) 10-20
Loams 10-15
Silt loams 15-25
Clay and clay loams 20-50
Organic soils 50-100

In general, the CEC of most soils increases with an increase in soil pH.
?????????????

and this academic site

http://www.microsoil.com/CEC.htm
The disadvantages of a low CEC obviously include the limited availability of mineral nutrients to the plant and the soil's inefficient ability to hold applied nutrients. Plants can exhaust a fair amount of energy (that might otherwise have been used for growth, flowering, seed production or root development) scrounging the soil for mineral nutrients. Soluble mineral salts (e.g. Potassium sulfate) applied in large doses to soil with a low CEC cannot be held efficiently because the cation warehouse or reservoir is too small.
and another
The CEC is the abbreviation for the cation exchange capacity of the soil.
Any element with a positive charge is called a cation and refers to the the basic cations, calcium (Ca+2), magnesium (Mg+2), potassium (K+1) and s odium (Na+1) and the acidic cations, hydrogen (H+1) and aluminum (Al+3).

These are from a huge variety of discussion groups all had a slightly differt take on cation exchange capacity. I found them interesting
I hope you do too.

In its simplest form, cation exchange capacity relates to that mineral's ability
to retain nutrients to be absorbed by plant roots. I'm sure a chemist could
provide a much more meaningful definition, but it has to do with positive and
negatively charged ions and their relationship with soil particles.
Pam - gardengal

Topic in rec.gardens

> Cation Exchange Capacity
> The ability of a soil or growth medium to retain nutrients against leaching
> by irrigation water or rainfall is estimated by measuring the cation exchange
> capacity (CEC). Most adsorption sites on growth medium particles are
> negatively charged and attract positively-charged ions. Many nutrients required by
> plants are positively charged and thus are attracted by these
> negatively-charged sites. Sands and other low-surface area materials have low cation exchange
> capacities while organic components have a greater ability to retain
> cations. Pine bark has a cation exchange capacity in the range of 10 to 13
> milliequivalents per 100 cubic centimeters while a CEC of approximately 1 is common
> for builders' sand.
from rec bonsi--

From:
David Hershey - view profile
Date:
Sat, Jan 17 2004 10:38 am
Email:
d ...@excite.com (David Hershey)
Groups:
sci.bio.botany

I would not apply those exact terms to roots. Instead, I would say
roots can excrete acids or bases depending on the environment. Also,
roots have a cation exchange capacity.

Tree roots should be able to excrete acid (hydrogen ions) or bases
(hydroxyl ions or carbonate ions) depending on the ionic composition
of the soil solution.

If most or all of the nitrogen is present as nitrate (NO3-), then
roots excrete hydroxyl ions (OH-). With all nitrogen as NO3-, roots
generally take up more anions than cations so must excrete some OH- to
maintain cation-anion balance. The hydroxyl ions may cause the soil
solution pH to rise. Roots have to have a net cation uptake about
equal to the net anion uptake on a charge basis in order to maintain
electroneutrality.

If a significant amount of nitrogen is present as ammonium (NH4+),
then most roots excrete hydrogen ions (H+) . With a significant amount
of NH4+, roots generally take up more cations than anions so must
excrete some H+ to maintain cation-anion balance. The hydrogen ions
cause the soil solution pH to decline.

In some species of iron-efficient plants, the roots excrete large
quantities of H+ even with all nitrogen as nitrate. This occurs when
the plants become iron deficient. The decline in rootzone pH greatly
increase iron availability. The shrub, Euonymus japonica, responds to
iron deficiency in this way (Hershey and Paul 1983).

In common philodendron (Philodendron scandens ssp. oxycardium), the
roots excrete H+ and the soil solution pH declines even when all
nitrogen is provided as nitrate. This pH decline occurs even when the
plant is not iron deficient (Mattis and Hershey 1992).

The above phenomena have not been studied for too many species.

Roots have a cation exchange capacity because of negative charges on
their cellulose surfaces which are satisfied by cations, such as
calcium (Ca++). Roots have an absolute requirement for calcium and
boron in the external solution to maintain membrane integrity.
from sci bio botany
From:
Bill Robinson - view profile
Date:
Fri, Feb 5 1999 12:00 am
Email:
"Bill Robinson" <rose ...@gte.net>
Groups:
rec.gardens.ecosystems

Nicole wrote:
>Does any one know what buffer capacity is exactly? How
>does it happen? Why? What effect does it have on plants?
>What purpose does it serve? Does it occur in/to all plant
>forms; i.e., shrubs, perennials, etc.? Can you induce it to
>happen?

Righteously good questions! This ought to take about 10
pages and be its own sub-section in the FAQ.

"The Nature and Properties of Soils" by Nyle C. Brady and
Ray R. Weil is a first rate reference and it has a fair amount
of information on soil buffering capacity and the role it plays
in the soil environment. They define buffering capacity as,
"The ability of a soil to resist changes in pH. Commonly
determined by presence of clay, humus, and other colloidal
materials."

"Cation Exchange Capacity" is kind of like that but not really.
Brady and Weil define " Cation Exchange Capacity" as, "The
sum total of exchangeable cations that a soil can absorb.
Sometimes called 'total-exchange capacity', "base exchange
capacity' or 'cation adsorption capacity'. Expressed in
centimoles of charge per kilogram of soil."

Soils with a high soil buffering capacity will also have a high
cation exchange capacity.

Soil pH shapes a lot of the chemical and bio-chemical reactions
that occur in the soil. It all goes back, at bottom line, to the very
complex, inter-reactions involving the soil environment, the soil
organisms, and the living plant roots. Soils that are low in colloidal
material, which on a practical basis means organic, usually don't
perform as well as soils with a high colloidal content but there is
more to it than simple cations. It also involves biology.

Rodale's made the statement many years ago that the way to feed
the garden was to feed the soil organisms. He was right. The issue
is the best way to feed the soil organisms. A soil rich in organic is
good food for the soil organisms and the organic helps to stabilize
the pH which helps in the nutrition in a whole number of ways.
from rec.gardens ecosystems

and from


Craig Bingman
Topic in sci.aquaria

Do I understand you correctly in that you claim that GAC has a lower
cation exchange capacity than laterite? My interest in using organic matter
to bind ions was sparked by reading 'The Soil-Plant System in Relation to
Inorganic Nutrition' by M. Fried and H. Broeshart from which I quote "the
organic matter also provides a reactive surface which both adsorbs cations
in exchangeable positions formed by COOH and OH groups and also may complex such ions as Fe, Mn, and even Ca and Mg. This adsorbtion and complexing of nutrients can be appreciable --
The cation exchange capacity of humic acid approximates 250 to 400 meq/100g, which is threefold that of the montmorillonite-type clays and 30- to 100-fold that of the kaolinite type."

This indicates that organic matter has a large potential to supply roots
with nutrients. My thoughts about filter carbon were with hopes to take
advantage of the high exchange capacity while eliminating the anaerobic muck
and H2S gas and water over-enrichment that usually results from letting organic matter decay in the substrate.

Upon rereading it seems that they're really making a point about humic acid more than anything, which is presumably not available in filter carbon and probably only available where there is decay.

This agrees with the old advice about adding peat to the substrate.
However, the hope might still be that the COOH and OH groups still exist
in GAC, if it's made from living plants. I have no idea and I hope that
someone else knows if filter carbon is the complicated end result of
processing plants (e.g. coconut) or if it's nearly purely graphite which
utilizes the "hydrophobic" effect to trap organics. (If this is the case then
why do we worry about carbon removing trace elements which exist in ionic form
from the water?)
Here are two possible drawbacks to using carbon. First, it was mentioned
on another recent thread about carbon that some companies process it with
phosphates: enough said. Second, I ran across an excellent review article
in the Journal of Aquatic Plant Management (vol 24, Jan 1986) which cites
research concluding that too much organic carbon in the substrate limits the
the growth of submerged aquatics (Aquat. Bot. 12:157-172, J. Ecol. 71:161-175).
However this was presumed due to high concentrations of organic acids and it
was also noted that "Low level accumulation of organic matter in such sediments
can apparently stimulate growth due presumably to improved ionic exchange
properties and increased sediment nutrient content." So it seems like one
wants to either avoid or use sparsely any organic matter which might decay.
Water movement through the substrate and water changes might circumvent this,
but this danger was the idea behind the filter carbon.

2) So clays may be the way to go. I do have a slight aversion to laterite's
high price in aquarium circles, but what I really dislike about it is that
we (most aquarists, myself included) know little about why it is so much
better at ion exchange than other clay minerals. Yes, I read the thread from
long ago between Jeff Frank, Oleg, George and others on how laterite is a
tropical clay which undergoes weathering over a geologic time scale and has
most Ca and Mg removed and has charged sites which attract nutrient ions, etc.,
etc.. But these are still vague descriptions which fail to tell us why is
is different from other minerals or some stuff I might dig up in my backyard.
Once I know how it works and why it's unique I'll shut up and buy it .
Here are some more interesting quotes from Fried and Broeshart's book on
the subject of clays: "The secondary minerals [those not present in the
magma] are primarily responsible for many of the phisicochemical properties
of soils that affect plant nutrition. The dominant reactive clay minerals,
including the kaolinites, montmorillonites, and illites, derive their
reactivity not only from their fineness of subdivision and broken exposed
crystal edges but also from isomorphous substitution in the lattice, resulting
in a net negative charge of the clay particle. It is this net negative charge
and the exposed crystal surface that result in the ionic adsorption of
cation, including nutrient cations. -- The dominant reactive clay minerals
found in soils are two-layer non-expanding types and three-layer expanding-
and nonexpanding-types. -- Within the lattice there are always substitutions
in the three layer minerals. -- These substitutions give rise to exchange
properties i.e., a net charge on the lattice resulting in the ability to
adsorb ions. Lattice substitutions are presumably not common in the two layer
type minerals, such as kaolinite, and most of the exchange properties of these
minerals are supposedly the result of the unbalanced structure at broken
edges. -- In many of the 3 layer minerals water can enter between the unit
layers, giving these minerals an expanded structure. -- The concentration of
M(solid) [a nutrient ion in the solid phase] reflects this difference in
capacity to adsorb exchangeable cations. Those soils in which the two layer
clay minerals dominate (e.g. lateritic type soils) typically contain relatively
small amounts of exchangeable cations and have a relatively small capacity to
hold them. Those in which the three layer clay minerals predominate
(e.g. chernozem soils) usually contain large amounts of exchangeable cations
and have a relatively large capacity to hold them." The double dashes above
mean that I left stuff out.
There is a able in the same section labelled "Cation Exchange Capacity
of Clay Minerals." The lowest listed exchange capacity listed is kaolinite
(3-15 meq/100g) which is a two-layer type which they seem to be indicating
is present in the lateritic type soils. The highest on the list is (drum
roll please...) vermiculite (100-150 meq/100g). You can buy vermiculite at
any nursury! This is just an idea but if it is as good as they make it sound
then I'd be willing to dry it out, pulverize it (for maximum surface area) and
see if it can't be made to sink so we can at least use it in the bottom
portion of the substrate. Comments?

3) Fried and Broeshart also talk about uncombined oxides: Oxides of Fe and
presumably Al exist as coatings on the clay particles. Much more is known of
the He oxides owing to the interest of the soil scientist in the nature of
the laterites." Then later "Al and Fe oxides and hydroxides will, depending
on external pH and salt concentration of the ambient soil solution,
disassociate H+ and OH- ions and can therefore adsorb cations and anions
at negative and positive charged spots. The oxide coatings -- provide a
reactive surface capable of retaining certain anions, chief among which
is Phosphate. It is also becoming apparent that the exchange properties of
soil are due to contibutions from oxide coatings." This seems to indicate
that the exchange properties of laterite are not due primarily to the crystal
structure but to a coating of Fe2O3 on it, which would account for its
supposed orange/brown color. This might be easily duplicated by adding an
iron enriching additive with little or no chelating agent to some of the
finer substrate particles, mixing with water, and allowing to dry in the
sun to make a good coating on the particles.
I'm sure any soil scientist could tell us if this is the key property
od laterite, so if you're out ther please post. I haven't seen this stuff
discussed in previous laterite threads. Also, it is frequently mentioned
that laterite adds a good dose of iron for the plants. If the above is true
then this notion is false since the oxide would be unavailable for uptake and
would function instead as a binding site.

There is more interesting stuff in this great book but you can look it up
yourself. I'm not a soil scientist and I found this and other good references
while doing a superficial search on trace element nutrition, so I imagine
there's a wealth of knowledge out there on clay composition and what minerals
work best for nutrition. I think these issues ought to be addressed before
I spend big bucks (on a student budget, not George's) for laterite additives.
Thanks for listening if you're still ther and keep the comments coming
because this subject needs more discussion than lighting or CO2, both of
which are well understood.
Jim Kelly
email jke ...@ucdhep.ucdavis.edu

Well I finally managed to covince my wife I needed some chook poo and horse poo from the local (300m away) farm. ( "No, not more, it smells!")
Us poor peasants have to use ordinary everday poo.


----------------
"Unemployment is capitalism's way of getting you to plant a garden."
~Orson Scott Card

Last edited by Michaelangelica; 05-24-2006 at 05:02 PM..
Old 05-26-2006   #90 (permalink)
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Re: Terra Preta

Another very good introductory article on Terra preta:-

http://www.philipcoppens.com/terrapreta.html

What we know + a slighly different perspective e.g.,

Philip Coppens

Since the latter half of the 20th century, two leading thoughts have come to the forefront of humanity: one is the possibility that we can destroy our planet – and whether our industrialised economy is killing the planet, the second is so-called “terraforming” other planets – making them inhabitable and suitable for human habitation.
Both “techniques” transform an existing ecosystem and reside in opposite camps – destruction and creation.
Though topical, and for many perhaps theoretical, it is not a purely modern issue, an outcome of Man’s conquest of space, or the science fiction generations that have grown up in the 20th century.
During that same century, it has become clear to science that people in the Amazon have created and used similar techniques – two millennia earlier.

and

Though some of the secrets of this soil have been discovered and will help in provide great help to many impoverished regions, some ingredients of Terra Preta remain unidentified – or at least difficult to reproduce.
In fact, one missing ingredient is how the soil appears to reproduce.
Science may not know the answer, but the Amazonian people themselves argue that as long as 20cm of the soil is left undisturbed, the bed will regenerate over a period of about twenty years.
A combination of bacteria and fungi are believed to be the transformative agents, but the agents themselves remain elusive from the scientific microscopes.


----------------
"Unemployment is capitalism's way of getting you to plant a garden."
~Orson Scott Card
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