Does God exist?

[REASON]

Originally Posted by IATESOTK

...I don't claim to have an answer to anything--- but I can think of a question for every answer that is asked--and that makes me happy to be alive.

Nice first post in a real thread, IATESOTK.

I think I might look forward to more of your work.

[IATESOTK]

Originally Posted by REASON

Nice first post in a real thread, IATESOTK.

I think I might look forward to more of your work.

Thanks REASON!

It's amazing to have an outlet for all these questions and ideas I have running around in here.

[OutsideTheBox]

There's no way that God's existence can be proven or disproven in this lifetime. I say that because of the almost wholly material nature of our existence in this material realm. Virtually anything you experienced, whether a magic act by David Copperfield - don't accompany him to his island though - or an actual miracle from the heavens would still leave you guessing that what you experienced was of a material nature. The reality of our binding to time, space, and the material realm in this life by defintion make it extremely difficult to experience that which transcends all three of those constructs. Perhaps those with a more spiritual nature, thus capable of transcending the otherwise wholly material existence on Earth, are indeed capable of discerning the existence of something real beyond just the people and environment around us. In that case it probably isn't too hard to extrapolate further to God. I think that's a lot of why religion (at the risk of having the word misconstrued to be associated with the many backward religions espoused these days) is such a personal experience. If you truly believe as an individual then who is to say that you are wrong and the non-believers are right? Conversely, to push the feelings/beliefs of a believer on a non-believer clearly is never going to work...

For what it's worth, I am personally quite confident that creationism (not to say that particular form espoused by certain religious organizations) and evolution are in no way mutually exclusive.

[freeztar]

Originally Posted by OutsideTheBox

For what it's worth, I am personally quite confident that creationism (not to say that particular form espoused by certain religious organizations) and evolution are in no way mutually exclusive.

How so?

You can wade in the water, and never get wet, if you keep on doin' that rag

[OutsideTheBox]

Originally Posted by freeztar

How so?

You can wade in the water, and never get wet, if you keep on doin' that rag

I'm not afraid to get wet...

If life were intelligently/purposely brought to this planet in its earliest stage(s) and then allowed to evolve... There you have it, both creationism (though not in the 'poof, you are people' manner) and evolution intertwined. Which is precisely what I believe occurred, to be truthful...

[REASON]

Originally Posted by OutsideTheBox

I'm not afraid to get wet...

If life were intelligently/purposely brought to this planet in its earliest stage(s) and then allowed to evolve... There you have it, both creationism (though not in the 'poof, you are people' manner) and evolution intertwined. Which is precisely what I believe occurred, to be truthful...

Interesting. So do you have any ideas of who the intelligent and purposeful beings were that brought the seeds of life to this planet? Who may have created them? How did all this agriculture, if you will, begin? Was it really their intention to wait four billion years for us, as intelligent and purposeful beings, to recognize their important contribution? Why not simply colonize?

Sorry. I always end up with all these questions.

[IATESOTK]

Originally Posted by OutsideTheBox

If life were intelligently/purposely brought to this planet in its earliest stage(s) and then allowed to evolve... There you have it, both creationism (though not in the 'poof, you are people' manner) and evolution intertwined. Which is precisely what I believe occurred, to be truthful...

I agree, actually. Evolution and creationism could easily work hand to hand if there is indeed an "ultimate creator."

It is my personal guess, if you will, that in order for God to be all knowing, He would have to have the ability to bend time--or maybe eliminate time completely. This would allow earth to evolve over millions of years to our perception, but perhaps to God it is only days or minutes or whatever.

It would be sort of like a computer game, let's say The Sims or Civilization (if you haven't played Civ. . I highly recommend it.) where you can "fast forward" the progression of time, so that the characters on screen make their moves extremely fast but it only takes you a couple seconds.

[OutsideTheBox]

Originally Posted by REASON

Interesting. So do you have any ideas of who the intelligent and purposeful beings were that brought the seeds of life to this planet? Who may have created them? How did all this agriculture, if you will, begin? Was it really their intention to wait four billion years for us, as intelligent and purposeful beings, to recognize their important contribution? Why not simply colonize?

Sorry. I always end up with all these questions.

No need to be sorry (though I'm quite sure you were being rhetorical). I suspect we all love the discussion/debate. I know I do.

By the way, nothing I write is purposefully meant to be presumptuous or authoritative. Sometimes I think people can inadvertently alienate each other, particularly on sensitive topics like religion or politics (and yes, even science), due to misperceptions of delivery. I think it's important to note since I'm not a proponent of dogma in any form and sincerely enjoy hearing others' views.

I believe that intelligent beings carried life to this planet much as an earthly farmer carries seeds to a newly prepared field. Obviously, the time scales are wildly differential, but it's my view that an intelligent mechanism is in place in the universe whereby newly modified life forms (I suspect as defined/contained in DNA) are 'implanted', if you will, on previously prepped planets not dissimilarly to the way we conduct agriculture on Earth.

Sometimes a 'crop' goes bad, too, just like it does here. Also, sometimes the 'agriculture' goes awry (if that word is meaningful) when a previously seeded world's evolved life gets technologically advanced enough to start doing their own seeding, perhaps using their own form as a baseline. Much like a rogue farmer, or maybe more analogous to the way that humans are now working with cloning technology and/or genetic engineering.

So, in a nutshell I'm of the view that colonization is also plausible and even a hybrid of seeding/colonization. Essentially, I believe the crude parallels of what we do on earth in terms of agriculture and genetics make sense.

Why wait huge amounts of time to see the fruit of seeding? I think it's a combination of the requirement for experience in the universe (I don't think we are the only experiential life by any means) and the plan of 'regulation', if you will. Certain orders of creatures are tasked with modifying and carrying life to the new spheres, while other certain existing previously evolved life forms are endowed with the dynamic freewill to do so as well (perhaps seeding and/or colonization) even though maybe they shouldn't be doing so. In any event, the seeding process shouldn't (and doesn't in my view) necessarily exclude the a later quasi-colonization scenario by way of genetic manipulation and/or integration...

I'll cut to the chase (though I do enjoy the debate in any context - whether focusing or not on the foundational beliefs of myself or others) and tell you that I believe in the Urantia Book. I'm glad to debate/discuss it here or elsewhere if it furthers the topic, but I mention it because it's very clear and concise on these matters. Thus referencing it as the foundation of my views should help clarify them as well.

[InfiniteNow]

Originally Posted by OutsideTheBox

I believe that intelligent beings carried life to this planet much as an earthly farmer carries seeds to a newly prepared field.

Try to remember the context of this discussion. The thread title is "Does God exist?" Hence, the logical next question to your quote above is, "And where did those intelligent beings come from?" You then get into to this reductio ad infinitum and land on God... but even then, the question remains... where did god come from.

The addition of god (or intelligent beings for that matter) don't offer any new information to the question at hand, they simply place arbitrary and unproven conjecture between the state of current knowledge and the ultimately sought goal.


And... then where did THEY come from... It's like playing the "why?" game with a 3 year old...

[OutsideTheBox]

Originally Posted by IATESOTK

I agree, actually. Evolution and creationism could easily work hand to hand if there is indeed an "ultimate creator."

It is my personal guess, if you will, that in order for God to be all knowing, He would have to have the ability to bend time--or maybe eliminate time completely. This would allow earth to evolve over millions of years to our perception, but perhaps to God it is only days or minutes or whatever.

It would be sort of like a computer game, let's say The Sims or Civilization (if you haven't played Civ. . I highly recommend it.) where you can "fast forward" the progression of time, so that the characters on screen make their moves extremely fast but it only takes you a couple seconds.

I don't disagree at all. Although, I'm not sure that 'fast forward' is common. I do believe that time is not constant in the realms of time and space, and that it may be (is) discerned differently at different points in the universe depending upon location (and perhaps other factors). I think earthly science has shown this is true in terms of our perception of time in relation to space travel.