[Jim Colyer]

I wrestle with the question of whether or not there is a God. It seems like I can prove it both ways and disprove it both ways. Does the universe need a creator to exist? Or is this just an idea inside man-made theology? Man yearns for the eternal. He wants to live forever and be strong forever. He is the only animal as far as we know which builds churches and contemplates the infinite. This in itself may be an indication that immortality resides in a soul of some kind. If there is truth in religion, I accept the premises of the New Testament.

Jim Colyer
Jim Colyer :: News

[tmaromine]

Well, I say no, but it really is only your choice...

Here is something I posted on another religious forum:

For me, it started just last August I think(or maybe just any of the 2006 before then, and to now), when I really started to further question things, and put the self-knowledge I've already thought of to logic.

The big part of it, I'd say started the beginning of 2006. I wrote a poem. After my teacher'ad graded it, she commented that I 'have a very deep thought process'. Now this I'm relying on vague memory to say, but I think I "just wrote" that, as if it came to me, and that I didn't think about life as deeply before it. I do know that after that, I've thought some complex – deep – things.

Ever since February '06, I've kept quotes in a document that I've found just "right about life" in one or a few sentences. Some of them I have on my same site as the poem there. Many "quotes" I've thought of myself, and while some others mightn't see them as "big", I know I do; they're important things in life summed in a small amount of words.

Many memories where I look back on myself, I feel less "mature" or less "knowing". Also, I usually look back on many of those memories from a third person view, and not as if it was actually me creating those memories. I feel that before last year, I was "unconscious" to life, and what people are and do. Last summer I had plenty of time to think, and be by myself with my thoughts. Sometimes I would think of something so "deep", that I went into a daydreamish state, and it was very vivid, but seconds later I came back to my ambience and it was harder to think of what I was thinking. I still have thoughts like that sometime; I wish I could make them happen on command.

Before last August, or last summer, I did believe in God, though my family doesn't go to church, and rarely did I ever discuss the topic. I even had in an old screenname's profile of mine "If you believe in God, put this here." About last August, I substantially started to think about where from I came – where and how we came. I think it was about the same time I 'switched'. But many nights I did lay down, about to fall asleep, wondering of God, and how it did feel a little "wrong" thinking about stopping a belief in him, or
"ignoring" him as if he really was the truth, and that I was just denying it. But over time, I've matured more, and understood more.

This year was the year where I really wanted to stop being so "immature", but that really didn't happen. Not too long ago I then realised there there os a difference between "being immature", and "being an immature (person)". So many times, laughter comes from something immature, and that I couldn't get rid of.

Then there are times on clear nights, that I look up out through my window, and see those few stars. Sometimes I get into that daydreamish trance, and I really think about just how far we are from them, and how they are many more that I just can't see. I feel "connected" with those white dots that shine. It's a feeling I can't explain, but it is one where I feel as if "I am nothing; my mind is everything" – kind of. And then there was one night where I had my window open, looking at the rolling clouds over a gleaming moon. It was chilly, with just a bright ball of white peering through and between clouds as they passed. During that moment of chilliness and moon, I sort of felt like that without humans, that is all the universe is, would be, or ever was. 'Black chills...with bright light'. Well, again, not quite. It is all too hard to explain, so I just value that emotion to myself. This doesn't have exactly too much with being atheist, other than that a lot of my thought and emotion was set on it, which made me feel a certain "truthful" way. (By the way, that night with the open window I took many pictures, and a few videos of moving clouds. None of them came out anything near the real beauty; none capture that feeling...)

Quite a few times I get annoyed at religious-believers, and there are other times when I just wish all humans would get along no matter my or your belief. Though rarely do I allow religious belief to be plausible in my mind...

Looking at the 'document of philosophies, I remember why I created it. I wrote 4 paragraph idea, and started the paragraphs with "Life–what is it?". It was a young idea of mine on life, the complex memory of which I still have in my head.... These types of things mightn't mean too much to others, unless they really, really think, but to me, they remind me of ideas that I can't forget for the well-being of my life...

Well, that was a lot, yet I still might not have answered your question. That was background, the reason I guess is: I feel like I can think deeper than many can, and I feel that is why I understand the "truth", and why I think religions were "created". It is all much because of complex thought. Thought that I cannot explain; it's emotional, and very abstract. I'd say the reason for why I don't believe in God is much more complicated than why you do believe in God.


«We all at times feel like we know what's right, but I feel like I know the real right… Though is that just my opinion, or my truth?»

«Age isn't amount of revolutions one'as went around the sun. Age is the amount of thought that has circled one's mind.»

«Knowledge itself isn't finite; the amount willing to be learnt is.»

«Knowing all is nothing; knowing of all is everything.»

«Let not someone teach you; let yourself be taught.»

In my opinion, my view for no God is definitely more complex and "thought-out" than some's view for God... This is definitely just my view though – if you even understand some of it. Keep contemplating ; the answer will find you/you'll find the answer.

[sanctus]

I like your last sentence tmaromine...

Jim Colyer, how can you prove that something (or god more specifically) doesn't exist? And note this question comes from a non-believer...

[ughaibu]

Sanctus: The normal ways to prove nonexistence are, 1) by inspection or 2) by contradictions derived from the definitions. God is a bit problematic as, being nonexistent by inspection, god can be defined pretty freely. Nevertheless, plenty of proofs of god's nonexistence exist. I'll be interested to read Jim Colyer's proofs.

[sanctus]

ughaibu: if you read post 14 and 15 of this thread it is better explained than I can why it is impossible to prove the non-existence:http://hypography.com/forums/philoso...369-god-2.html

In my words it would be:
1) how can you know you inspected everything?
2) is there a worldwide accepted definition of a deity?

[ughaibu]

Sanctus: I disagree that it's impossible to prove god's nonexistence.
I dont think that it's required to inspect everything, as god is claimed to have been relevant to humans for thousands of years. This relevance requires interaction, so, an inspection of all known classes of entities defined as existing seems sufficient to me.
I also dont think that the variety of definitions is a problem, as all definitions have common features.
It's pointed out, in the posts that you linked to, that nonexistence is god's default status, so it's not necessary to prove nonexistence, it's only necessary to successfully challenge proofs of existence. However, as belief in god is an essentially irrational activity, there's not much to be gained either by discrediting proofs of existence or by constructing proofs of nonexistence, except that it's fun and a good proof can be beautiful, which is reason enough for me.

[sanctus]

I think that with your inspection you can only draw conlcusion of the type "it seems likely/unlikely that" (maybe with some superlatives) but you never can prove it. If you see "very likely" as a proof then I agree with your reasoning but I still don't see it as a proof.

[ughaibu]

Basically a proof consists of a valid argument with accepted premises, whether any proof can claim to establish what is true about external reality, isn't clear.

[phoenixbyrd]

1) The biblical god is one giant contradictive nightmare after the other. No perfect being can be contradictive. If a perfect being such as god can be contradictive then we must throw out our definition of what is perfect.

2) The biblical god is much younger, being of recent historical worship. This is akin to claiming that Scientology is true despite it being a recent religion.

3) Everyone of every religion on earth today claims personal proof for their magical deities. Why accept the personal proof of the biblical god over the personal proof of other gods, there's no logic in that.

4) Faith is blind belief. Faith in any god doesn't require any proof that such a god or gods exist, just the blind belief that it is true.

5) Prayer doesn't work, ask hundreds of amputees. Why would god help someone out say ... financially and not help them regrow an arm? There are many examples of people claiming they were in a financial rut and prayed to god for help and then family gave them money and in their heads it was god answering their prayers. Yet no amputee to date has ever regrown a lost limb.

6) Many natural processes were once attributed to god(s). Primitive man didn't have the technology nor education to critically think about what was going on in the world around him and so turned to stories of angery gods to explain away things like lightning and such. How the universe came to be is just the last so called mystery of man that hasn't been explained in full yet and so still remains in the mythology of magical deities.

There's many things that prove no god(s) exist once you start thinking about them. All it takes is abit of education and a look at history.

[hallenrm]

Let me pose another question to members interested in this thread!

Do quarks exist?

If your answer is yes, then God exists too Do you see the parallels?