Non-existence is god's only necessary property.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 03-26-2007
Creating

Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,445
ughaibu is a splendid one to beholdughaibu is a splendid one to beholdughaibu is a splendid one to beholdughaibu is a splendid one to beholdughaibu is a splendid one to beholdughaibu is a splendid one to beholdughaibu is a splendid one to beholdughaibu is a splendid one to behold
Non-existence is god's only necessary property.

For an object to exist, for human beings, that object must be conceivable, and of conceivable objects, for an object to exist in reality it must interact with human beings, either directly or indirectly and without unreasonable exclusivity, eg radio waves exist in reality even though the deaf can not hear radio receivers. So, there are two classes of existing objects, 1) those that exist only in the imagination and 2) those that exist also in reality. As 1) is an unbound over-inclusive class, it is not useful for defining an object's existence, hence, I take 2) to be the class of objects that can meaningfully be described as 'existing'.
God's status would be compromised if god could be named, either distinctly as a known real object or as a member of a class of known real objects. For this point it's relevant that god has been conceived of for 1000s of years, we previously had what were gods but are now volcanoes, thunder, the moon, etc.
An imaginary object can be conceived with complete freedom, but in the case of god this freedom is limited by the possibility of being mundanely re-named, from this it follows that the only constraint on conceptions of god is that such conceptions be outside known reality, and as god can not be part of any reality that can ever be known, god can not exist. That is to say, god can be absolutely anything that can not be named as an existing thing, so, non-existence is the only essential property of god.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 03-27-2007
Questioning

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: I live on a free range farm
Posts: 131
ErlyRisa has a spectacular aura aboutErlyRisa has a spectacular aura aboutErlyRisa has a spectacular aura about
Re: Non-existence is god's only necessary property.

I am glad I am not the only one using my brain.

so r u a Neo, Morpheus, Oracle or Trinity....I think maybe an Oracle.

with this post I will be ... Morpheus.(thankyou for being my Oracle)

the real question to ask... is God in our reality?

for existance (object | space , symbiosis)... a higher existance would be a 'packet of information' defined by the rhetoric of existance... the VOID or zero. Is just a part of existance itself.

So without existance. there is no GOD, with existance... information that is organised outside our perception is GOD. ..and of course, without existance, their is no existance.

--There will always be a pattern that is definable as an organised entity (DATA/Information) which we can call GOD.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 03-27-2007
Questioning

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: I live on a free range farm
Posts: 131
ErlyRisa has a spectacular aura aboutErlyRisa has a spectacular aura aboutErlyRisa has a spectacular aura about
Re: Non-existence is god's only necessary property.

For example... being an oracle ( a packet of information, that prods and pushes other packets, to result in a 'absolute' result )
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 05-21-2008
Creating

Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,445
ughaibu is a splendid one to beholdughaibu is a splendid one to beholdughaibu is a splendid one to beholdughaibu is a splendid one to beholdughaibu is a splendid one to beholdughaibu is a splendid one to beholdughaibu is a splendid one to beholdughaibu is a splendid one to behold
Re: Non-existence is god's only necessary property.

This has been skeletonised for clarity as:
1) any thing in nature can be observed, measured and uniquely named
2) god cant be observed, measured and uniquely named
3) that which cant be observed, measured or named can be imagined
4) there are no restrictions on what can be imagined
5) by 1+2+4: the only restriction on how god is imagined, is that god be not part of nature
6) all things that relevantly exist are part of nature
7) by 5+6: the only essential property of god is non-existence

Anyone interested in further clarifications that came up in a rather tedious sequence of objections and defences, can find the follow up here: Arguments against god[list] - Page 2 - IIDB
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 05-21-2008
HydrogenBond's Avatar
Creating

Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,971
HydrogenBond is a name known to allHydrogenBond is a name known to allHydrogenBond is a name known to allHydrogenBond is a name known to allHydrogenBond is a name known to allHydrogenBond is a name known to allHydrogenBond is a name known to all
Re: Non-existence is god's only necessary property.

Where do dreams fits into reality? Everyone has had dreams so there is plenty of data to show that the dream phenomena exists. The firing of neurons during dreams is not much different than when we observe physical reality. The only major difference is the dream affect does not use the sensory systems, but it can use the rest of the brain's wiring to get the same affect. Dreams exist in that transition area, where things can appear real without existing. In dreams we have an observer for what appears to be real without being real.

Dreams show that things do not have to exist in physical reality to create the affect they are real. If someone had an hallucination, it would appear real without actually existing. Theoretically, if we could tweak the brain, by-passing the sensory systems, one could create a perception of real without it being in physical reality. Say the brain was an antenna and could pick up quantum signals. The dream would be real at the quantum level but not exactly real the way we expect it to be.

Last edited by HydrogenBond; 05-22-2008 at 08:38 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 05-23-2008
Thunderbird's Avatar
Creating

Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,539
Thunderbird has much to be proud ofThunderbird has much to be proud ofThunderbird has much to be proud ofThunderbird has much to be proud ofThunderbird has much to be proud ofThunderbird has much to be proud ofThunderbird has much to be proud ofThunderbird has much to be proud ofThunderbird has much to be proud of
Re: Non-existence is god's only necessary property.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HydrogenBond View Post
Say the brain was an antenna and could pick up quantum signals. The dream would be real at the quantum level but not exactly real the way we expect it to be.
The brain is an "antenna" that picks up quantum signals.
__________________

I do not know what I seem to the world, but to myself I appear to have been like a boy playing upon the seashore and diverting myself by now and then finding a smoother pebble or prettier shell than ordinary, while the great ocean of truth lay before me all undiscovered. - Sir Isaac Newton
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 05-23-2008
Thunderbird's Avatar
Creating

Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,539
Thunderbird has much to be proud ofThunderbird has much to be proud ofThunderbird has much to be proud ofThunderbird has much to be proud ofThunderbird has much to be proud ofThunderbird has much to be proud ofThunderbird has much to be proud ofThunderbird has much to be proud ofThunderbird has much to be proud of
Re: Non-existence is god's only necessary property.

There are step by step practices that can make a dream real to the point where it is almost as real as everday awake state.
__________________

I do not know what I seem to the world, but to myself I appear to have been like a boy playing upon the seashore and diverting myself by now and then finding a smoother pebble or prettier shell than ordinary, while the great ocean of truth lay before me all undiscovered. - Sir Isaac Newton
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 05-23-2008
HydrogenBond's Avatar
Creating

Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,971
HydrogenBond is a name known to allHydrogenBond is a name known to allHydrogenBond is a name known to allHydrogenBond is a name known to allHydrogenBond is a name known to allHydrogenBond is a name known to allHydrogenBond is a name known to all
Re: Non-existence is god's only necessary property.

Related to dreams is the imagination. Dreams are mostly spontaneous, but imagination can be directed with will, or can spontaneously occur. The spontaneous aspects of the imagination are like dreams while we are awake. Here is a home experiment to observe this transition area between dreams and imagination, where perception of real is semi-real, even while one is awake and conscious.

What you do is go to a scary movie, like a horror movie, at night. Then you have someone drop you off in the woods, alone. What will happen most of the time, is the imagination will become active. The rustling of the bushes is now a bear. Often one side of the person will say this is just my imagination but another part of them may still feel uncomfortable because there is some doubt, based on how the body is reacting to the imagination.

The second half of the experiment is to take a dog to the same movie. Then drop him/her off in the woods. They will not react the same way. They are more in touch with their limited instinctive reality and may start to explore and would react to the bush, like there is a bear in it, only if there was an actual bear. Animals don't have the same range of transition area.

My conclusion is that these transition areas and phenomena of the brain are what is required to observe what is not solidly fixed within reality.
Quote:
Non-existence is god's only necessary property.
It is not fully clear if God is all imagination-dream or whether imagination-dream is the center of perception that would allow this experience. In other words, a scientist seeking such data may never get such data with a telescope or microscope, unless these transition areas of the brain are also involved in the observational process.

Here is an interesting coincidence. One of the features of dreams and imagination is cause and affect are able to break down. One can fly without wings in both their dreams and imagination. At the same time, dreams typically generate what appears to be random data. Where I am heading with this is, these dream-imagination parameters are not much different than those used in chaos-random theories. The question is, are these theories expressing reality or are these theories connected to those transition layers of the brain overlapping reality to create semi-reality, i.e., bear (transition area) in the bush (reality). It one of those things; is it the chicken or egg?

The same argument could be applied to God concepts. Are the transitions areas in the human mind overlapping reality to create semi-reality where reality can appear as quickly as a dream, with cause and affect able to break down? Or do these areas of the brain express sort of a parallel reality, which is now defined by chaos? Chaos is as real to the scientist as God is to the religious person and follow the same laws as these transition areas of the brain. The only difference is religion tries to create order in the chaos. While science tries to leave the chaos as is. Science does not expect to find order in the chaos, such that God concepts appear to be out of touch with, without cause and affect.

One needs to address these aspects of the mind because they are real in the sense of existing with their own laws. In physics, some observations of subtle experiments can be influenced by the observer. It may be more an artifact of these transition areas, which are not as easy to filter out. The bear in the bush may have an impact on the observation either as a actual physical potential or as semi-reality. It is not entirely clear.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 05-25-2008
Creating

Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,445
ughaibu is a splendid one to beholdughaibu is a splendid one to beholdughaibu is a splendid one to beholdughaibu is a splendid one to beholdughaibu is a splendid one to beholdughaibu is a splendid one to beholdughaibu is a splendid one to beholdughaibu is a splendid one to behold
Re: Non-existence is god's only necessary property.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HydrogenBond View Post
Dreams show that things do not have to exist in physical reality to create the affect they are real
REM.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 05-25-2008
Creating

Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,445
ughaibu is a splendid one to beholdughaibu is a splendid one to beholdughaibu is a splendid one to beholdughaibu is a splendid one to beholdughaibu is a splendid one to beholdughaibu is a splendid one to beholdughaibu is a splendid one to beholdughaibu is a splendid one to behold
Re: Non-existence is god's only necessary property.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HydrogenBond View Post
My conclusion is that these transition areas and phenomena of the brain are what is required to observe what is not solidly fixed within reality
MRI.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
God's Vision, A reminder. orbsycli Theology forum 38 12-12-2007
The Case Against God: God's Nature Lancaster Theology forum 32 03-15-2007
Interesting property of MOND's constant KickAssClown Physics and Mathematics 8 08-03-2006
Property Rights Racoon Political sciences 2 06-23-2006
God's ahead in Kansas Fishteacher73 Biology 116 05-27-2005

» Current Poll
Favorite James Bond?
Sean Connery - 63.64%
7 Votes
George Lazenby - 0%
0 Votes
David Niven - 9.09%
1 Vote
Roger Moore - 9.09%
1 Vote
Timothy Dalton - 9.09%
1 Vote
Pierce Brosnan - 0%
0 Votes
Daniel Craig - 9.09%
1 Vote
Hate 'em all - 0%
0 Votes
Who's James Bond? - 0%
0 Votes
Total Votes: 11
You may not vote on this poll.

All times are GMT -8. The time now is 01:56 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO 3.2.0 ©2008, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright © 2000-2008 Hypography
Part of the Hypography - Science for Everyone Network