[palmtreepathos]

This discussion of the word HOPE reminds me of a couple of scriptures

And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more; And you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be. But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace....The righteous themselves will possess the earth.And they will reside forever upon it. Psalm 37:10-11 and vs 29

With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.” And the One seated on the throne said: “Look! I am making all things new.” Also, he says: “Write, because these words are faithful and true.” (Revelation 21:3-5)

Anyone who reasons on these verses can see that these HOPES are not the transitory desires that one may think of as attainable by one's own efforts. These are hopes promised by Jehovah that make all this life's indignities worth the suffering , it makes up for all the deaths of children and the innocent, it offer justice, it promises the earth will soon be restored to the way it was designed to be. These are promises backed up by the fullfillment of other prophecies that have come true. Without research into these events one cannot have this type of hope.

Many have no such hope, from what I see in the offerings of atheism, there are only the mundane things to be hoped for, food, shelter, entertainment, sex, freedom from prejudice, etc. Oh yes there is an idealism for the future that requires some to think altruistically of others and live this life without the desires of their heart (w/o hope for themselves) so that SOMEONE somewhere will have the ideal life that seems possible on this planet. But those noble and loving atheists who follow that way know in their hearts that they are martyrs for a cause that may never happen, wiped out by the global warming that has a grip on our lovely globe or any number of other threats (percieved or in process) to the fabric of mankind that has inundated the earth. (disease, war/nuclear explosions, famine, pollution, horrific weather, unstable family life, etc)

There is a pleasure/addictive mad pace that moves people to disregard their bills, their health, their principles and their families all in the quest to forget that they have not had what they needed in life or cannot face what they see. I see it all around me and constantly in the news. And people get angry just talking about it, complete denial. God is either a cosmic Santa Claus or a demonised dominator, neither view is accurate.

The Bible speaks of people without the HOPE that God offers as having this view... "If the dead are not to be raised up, “let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we are to die." " 1 Corinthians 15:32 This lack of HOPE is being discussed in the study of depression, as well. There is an overwhelming disbelief that there is a FUTURE for individuals and the humanrace.

[InfiniteNow]

Originally Posted by palmtreepathos

Many have no such hope, from what I see in the offerings of atheism

For the love of Thor, atheism is not a belief set. Precisely to which offerings do you refer?


What I notice in the worldview of people that don't believe in purple unicorns is that they're not completely retarded...

[palmtreepathos]

Originally Posted by InfiniteNow

atheism is not a belief set. Precisely to which offerings do you refer?

You "wish" it was that simple. Even among the stellar members of hypography there is a plea to abandon the hope of anything beyond man, a call to unite in the "atheistic freedoms" as if those who dis-believe are more intelligent, less responsible and somehow divorced from the world scene that I mentioned above.

I notice that you completely ignore the substance of the picture I painted and went for the cheap shot, which oddly doesn't even bother me since I must be completely retarded...

[InfiniteNow]

Originally Posted by palmtreepathos

I notice that you completely ignore the substance of the picture I painted and went for the cheap shot, which oddly doesn't even bother me since I must be completely retarded...

Well, I give you credit for at least admitting it openly.

[CraigD]

Originally Posted by palmtreepathos

This discussion of the word HOPE reminds me of a couple of scriptures…

As one of our most expert members in Holy Bible scripture, I look to you for some high-quality insight into Biblical references to hope, palmtreepathos.

My inexpert impression is that neither the OT or the New describes hope in the same sense as contemporary non-Judeo-Christian sources, like the story of Pandora’s box I discussed in post #6. When it uses words translating to the English “hope”, the use seems more concrete, as in hoping not to be defeated in battle, hoping not to die, hoping for the coming of the messiah, etc. Nowhere do I find any intimation of God, and angel, etc. giving of taking hope as some sort of transferable stuff.

This reinforces a personal (and again, very inexpert) theory of mine that until fairly recently – no earlier than the year 1000, possibly much later –Jews and Christians, except for a few heretical minorities (including semi-pagan Greeks and Romans), didn’t believe in or think much about thought, souls, and similar meta-physical ideas. Another, stronger confirming datum for this theory are early Christian burial traditions (eg: carefully maintained ossuaries) and art related to the raising of the dead. As best I can tell, nearly all of them considered life after death to be literal, biological life - flesh reforming on bones, and the long-dead waking, emerging from crypts, and physically carrying on with life – and as a result, were careful to preserve remnants of the dead, lest their physical resurrection be impossible.

As the inclusion and exclusion of scripture in the Bible was complete long before the end of this literal-mindedness, the Bible doesn’t contain the concept of hope as metaphysical object.

What is your opinion of this theory? Can you think of any scripture supporting or contradicting it?

Back on topic, if early Jews and Christians were as literal-minded as I suspect they were, the question “does hope come from God” would have been about as meaningful to them as “does cosmic love come from the Sun” is to a modern-day scientist. Although these great numbers of these early religionists believed fervently in the real, objective existence of God, the idea of hope as something that could come from anything would not have made sense to them.

At some fairly recent time in history, it began to. Riddling out this transition is one of my favorite theological interests.

[palmtreepathos]

Originally Posted by CraigD

As one of our most expert members in Holy Bible scripture

Please..... Don't..... say....... that! Palmtreepathos <<<< dodging metaphysical lightning bolts!
I am no more an expert than would be a blind man who stumbles around in his house day in and day out... you bump into things enough you remember where they are but you also have the good sense to ask about the things you don't understand and you learn. I never mean to come across as an expert.

Originally Posted by CraigD

My... impression is that neither the OT or the New describes hope in the same sense as contemporary non-Judeo-Christian sources,..........the Bible doesn’t contain the concept of hope as metaphysical object. What is your opinion of this theory? Can you think of any scripture supporting or contradicting it?

“For the thoughts of YOU people are not my thoughts, nor are my ways YOUR ways,” is the utterance of Jehovah. “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than YOUR ways, and my thoughts than YOUR thoughts. Isaiah 55:8.9 <<<why I trust the Bible

"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry YOU off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ" (Colossians 2:8) <<<why I don't spend time studying the philosophies.

One(the Bible) makes the course of mankind make sense... the other just stirs up more unanswerable questions, like a puppy chasing it's tail.

Originally Posted by CraigD

if early Jews and Christians were as literal-minded as I suspect they were, the question “does hope come from God” would have been about as meaningful to them as “does cosmic love come from the Sun” is to a modern-day scientist. Although these great numbers of these early religionists believed fervently in the real, objective existence of God, the idea of hope as something that could come from anything would not have made sense to them.

Great minds and simple ones have always been with mankind. The Proverbs show the amazing perceptiveness of the man Solomon. The Bible premise is that the first man was created perfect, with a brain made for eternal living and his deductive and reasoning skill would have been superior, but it also shows the power of a self-indulgent heart to excuse bad behavior. It has been downhill ever since with great intelligence and delusion walking hand in hand.

I don't believe true "HOPE" can be examined "intellectually" It is an experience that comes from putting yourself into the picture and trusting that what God promises can come true, examining historical evidence in light of the Bible, then by your actions and God's support "HOPE" becomes a possession.

[REASON]

Originally Posted by palmtreepathos

I don't believe true "HOPE" can be examined "intellectually" It is an experience that comes from putting yourself into the picture and trusting that what God promises can come true, examining historical evidence in light of the Bible, then by your actions and God's support "HOPE" becomes a possession.

So then you believe "TRUE" hope comes from "trusting that what GOD promises can come true", and that by acting in faith and consistent with certain Biblical interpretations, your hope will become reality.

I assume you're referring to the afterlife. Is that what you mean?

Does this mean that any experience of hope we have that is not associated with God, faith, or the afterlife would be false hope?

[Brinnie]

"hope" is a calculation, lolz. and so it is written:

[CraigD]

Originally Posted by Brinnie

"hope" is a calculation, lolz. and so it is written:

What!?

Brinnie, please elaborate.

[Brinnie]

Originally Posted by CraigD

What!?

Brinnie, please elaborate.

Hope's an easy one cause it's neighbors with imagination...

FACTOR 1: when you hope for something, say a car for your birthday. You have determined that it is possible.

FACTOR 2: The difference between a hope and a wish is probability. unless you're the son of a billionaire, nobody hopes their graduation present is a Ferrarri, only that it's a decent car.

Essentially, the brain functioned in utilizing past logic in prediction between possibility and probability to generate a simulated fantasy in your head of a calculated future. the indescribable positive feeling present at the time of thought is merely a biological side effect we call emotion. consequentially, when the thoughts are threatening in nature, we call this phenomena fear.


But that's not half as interesting as how relative these fantasies are to our reaction time in the exact moment. enough consciousness will make you... godlike.