[InfiniteNow]

Originally Posted by Overdog

Thanks for posting this. I have been uncomfortable with the word too, but Harris does an excellent job of explaining it and helping me see some of the reasons for my sense of discomfort with the word "Atheist".

It was very well done, I agree. He goes on to make a pretty powerful point about it. He suggests that the use of the term itself presents a sort of "ceiling" to the potential success of the movement. He uses examples (as you mentioned) like race.

It didn't take a group of people saying, "Hey, we're non-racists" to change the sentiment in the world. What it really took was the broad acceptance of the fact that racism is wrong. Same for Thor and Zeus. They didn't die out because a large group of people banded together to say, "We're A-Thorians" or "We're A-Zeusists..." All it took was people realizing how silly and unecessary these mythological beliefs were, how unfounded they are in reality, and how the control they had over the minds of the populace needed to be severed.

Same with religion and belief in god today. It's not a group of people with a common label who are going to break us from this proverbial spell. It's the realization that these things are counter to rational thought and common sense.

I really do find it a powerful point. The label "atheist" just pigeon holes a huge group who find the evidence available for belief in god insufficient, so if someone comes up to you and says, "I'm a Christian, what are you?" ... you should try to avoid saying, "I'm an atheist," since even though it's easy and close to the truth, the other person will likely think something like, "Oh, I know his type... he just hasn't found god yet..." and the conversation just stops right there.

What we need is for such conversations to continue, and for the valid criticisms and challenges we have of the religious/god position to be addressed, not dismissed.



If you haven't already, the talk is pretty great (he even goes on to talk about spirituality, and challenges the "atheist" aversion to human spiritual experience). If you click on the title link in the embedded video below and open it in its own window, you can view it as full (or just larger) screen. You should check it out if you have a little while to sit and watch.

Sam Harris at AAI 07

[modest]

Originally Posted by InfiniteNow

One of the challenges, however, is that the moderates provide a source of cover for the extremists. When those who are against religion make claims, they often reach for the most fundamendalist nutjob examples to make their points.

Well, that’s called strawmanning and they really shouldn’t do that - or, at least, it’s not the best argument tactic for them to take. If their argument is against fundamentalist nutjobs then such examples are well made. If, however, their argument is against all of religion then such examples are perhaps a bit misplaced.

Originally Posted by InfiniteNow

In turn, the religious moderates respond something like, "Well, that's not MY version of religionX," or, "That's not the type of god that I believe in."

As well they should.

Originally Posted by InfiniteNow

They then admonish you for using extreme examples.

Hey, Stalin is no example of my atheism - I can relate.

Originally Posted by InfiniteNow

Worse yet, it tends to be the non-religious and the "weak" atheists who attack arguments counter to religion most ferociously. Somehow religion has managed to co-opt non-believers to be offended on their behalf. It's quite twisted.

There’s nothing twisted about allowing for beliefs that are different and even counter to your own. And, allowing for such beliefs is NOT a roadblock to arguing against them. I personally (and nearly accidentally) converted two Christians to agnosticism my freshman year of college while, at the same time, respecting their beliefs and supporting their right to believe whatever they want. Who was being co-opted there?

This brings up a memory and maybe a good point/question: when a catholic insists that the virgin Mary was a virgin, how do you respond? Do you show them the scripture declaring Mary was not a virgin, or do you declare the Catholic a dumb ass and walk away? Despite Hitchens' declaration that such beliefs don't warrant an argument and just need underlined - in fact, it is most effective to respect such a belief and the person who believes it and make an argument from their footing. Such is my experience which is not faint, meager, or co-opted.

~modest

[InfiniteNow]

Originally Posted by modest

in fact, it is most effective to respect such a belief and the person who believes it and make an argument from their footing.

I completely recognize the point you are trying to make, but I'll just say I don't have to respect their belief at all, and, in fact, I don't. Just as if someone were to approach me and share their belief that purple unicorn farts cause erections in leprechauns, I wouldn't have to respect that belief to point out how silly and false it truly is.

To be clear, I respect their "right" to believe whatever they want, but I find most of the beliefs themselves childish and archaic.

Now, if I were arguing that I wanted to "convert" people away from their religion, then I'd have to agree with you that it's better to see things from their side and work with them to find common ground. ... but that's not quite what I'm doing. I'm trying to shed light on the ridiculousness of the beliefs themselves in hopes that these people will "convert" themselves.

It's a subtle difference, I concede, but an important one. The end goal is the same, but the scope of the tactic I'm using is orders of magnitude more powerful than trying to "convert" people one by one.


Treat the source, not the symptom.


EDIT: Regardless, though... too many of these people are "immune" to logic and reason, so for me it's really more a matter of getting the "independent" voters and the "undecideds" more than changing those who have already selected a "party."

[Michaelangelica]

Is there a word, other than atheist, that translates to "Who cares?"

I don't think you can use the word "cult" about science.
It is a methodology, not a club people belong to.

Then, it would be comforting to believe in an afterlife.
Though it does surprise me how many people in religious cults are very frightened of death.

[InfiniteNow]

Originally Posted by Michaelangelica

Is there a word, other than atheist, that translates to "Who cares?"

I propose...

Apathist.

[modest]

Originally Posted by InfiniteNow

I completely recognize the point you are trying to make, but I'll just say I don't have to respect their belief at all, and, in fact, I don't.

No, I didn't say you had to respect their beliefs. I actually think it's kind of natural that you don't. And, it's just as natural for 'them' to disrespect your beliefs. I'm saying (which you disagree with below) that mutual disrespect is not a beneficial strategy for changing people’s minds about something - especially religion. As a strategy (or as you say: "tactic") it is antithetical to the goal - assuming the goal is to promote atheism over theism.

Originally Posted by InfiniteNow

Just as if someone were to approach me and share their belief that purple unicorn farts cause erections in leprechauns, I wouldn't have to respect that belief to point out how silly and false it truly is.

It is not beneficial to the atheist cause to tell 92% of your countrymen and women that they believe in unicorn farts and leprechaun erections. You may think it's terribly clever - but, I assure you it pisses them off and makes them hate everything you stand for.

Originally Posted by InfiniteNow

Now, if I were arguing that I wanted to "convert" people away from their religion, then I'd have to agree with you that it's better to see things from their side and work with them to find common ground.

Agreed

Originally Posted by InfiniteNow

... but that's not quite what I'm doing.

I think the debate and attitude that helps an individual come to terms with reason over superstition should be no different from the debate and attitude that does the same for more than one individual. Similarly, the imperious attitude that's ineffective on the individual level surely would be just as fruitless and vain with the masses, and even more so because:

When you antagonize a group of people there's a circle-the-wagons response.

Originally Posted by InfiniteNow

I'm trying to shed light on the ridiculousness of the beliefs themselves in hopes that these people will "convert" themselves.

Insulting and disrespecting religion only strengthens it. Like Obi-Wan, if you strike it down, it only gets stronger.

Going to war with religion bolsters and consolidates the faith and pushes the faithful toward fundamentalism. Consider the example of the Mormon church (LDS church). 150 years ago we did our best to destroy it and look what happened. There is a whole history from New York to Utah of persecution resulting in more and more followers with more and more fundamentalist beliefs. I won't get into it all, but notable is the 1838 executive order issued by the governor of Missouri to “exterminate or drive off” the Mormon population. Their founder Joseph Smith was mobbed several times - one time tarred and feathered and another time shot to death. There’s a direct cause and effect there that actually built Mormonism. The Romans did the same - exterminate, torture, burn, crucify, and otherwise oppress the Christian population. A hundred years later the empire was fully Christian.

Extremist anti-theists today may think they can shock religious sensibility into seeing the truth with some aggressive and antagonistic language, but that's not the effect it has. It's a mild version of the attacks various religions have undergone for thousands of years.

And, by the way, theists are not stupid - they know this. The Falwells and Robertsons out there can’t wait for the next religion-bashing book to come out or the next lawsuit to ban prayer in school. It’s a tool for them to push their followers towards fundamentalism and it works very well.

History demonstrates the problem with the approach and, really, it's common sense. Engaging in a pissing contest doesn’t bring people to your side.

Originally Posted by InfiniteNow

It's a subtle difference, I concede, but an important one. The end goal is the same, but the scope of the tactic I'm using is orders of magnitude more powerful than trying to "convert" people one by one.

“Orders of magnitude more powerful” If you honestly believe that comparing God to a unicorn or a leprechaun’s erection is converting masses of the silent majority to atheism then there’s probably nothing I can say to change your thinking. I say this as a fellow atheist who shares your desire to see society benefit from people's choice to throw off superstition... I believe your tactics hurt atheism.

~modest

[Michaelangelica]

Originally Posted by InfiniteNow

I propose...

Apathist.

No
Sounds like abee keeeper