[modest]

Originally Posted by nutronjon

If people want to argue against the Greek influence on the bible, prehaps we should start a thread for this argument. Here is some information that can be used for such a thread........

I said John wasn't Greek, I didn't say there was no Greek influence in the bible. Here is me talking in a previous thread:

Originally Posted by modest

The idea of early Christian spirits and souls is a melting-pot of Hebrew, Greek, and other philosophies. Mostly, however, it is Platonic as most all authoritative authors and constructors of those Christian and pre-Christian ideas both spoke Greek and were trained in Platonism.

-modest

[nutronjon]

Originally Posted by modest

John wasn't Greek.

-modest

I stand corrected. John wasn't a Greek, just the language used was Greek.

Greece, A History of Ancient Greece, GREEK LITERATURE

To suggest that all Western literature is no more than a footnote to the writings of classical Greece is an exaggeration, but it is nevertheless true that the Greek world of thought was so far-ranging that there is scarcely an idea discussed today that was not debated by the ancient writers. The only body of literature of comparable influence is the Bible.

The language in which the ancient authors wrote was Greek. Like English, Greek is an Indo-European language; but it is far older. Its history can be followed from the 14th century BC to the present. Its literature, therefore, covers a longer period of time than that of any other Indo-European language

To clarify:

Koine Greek - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Koine Greek (Greek: Κοινὴ Ἑλληνική, IPA: [ciˈni eliniˈci], "common Greek", or ἡ κοινὴ διάλεκτος, IPA: [i ciˈni ˈðialektos], "the common dialect") is the popular form of Greek which emerged in post-Classical antiquity (c.300 BC – AD 300), and marks the third period in the history of the Greek language.[1] Other names are Alexandrian, Hellenistic, Common, or New Testament Greek. Koine is important not only to the history of the Greeks for being their first common dialect and main ancestor of modern Greek, but also for its impact on Western culture as a lingua franca for the Mediterranean.[1] It was also the original language of the New Testament of the Christian Bible as well as the medium for the teaching and spreading of Christianity.[1] Koine Greek was unofficially a first or second language in the Roman Empire.[1]

[modest]

In any case, I would personally appreciate it if you didn’t turn every thread into a discussion of Greek or Roman philosophy. I do understand it is a topic of great interest to you, but it’s not always applicable. I don’t mean this as an attack. I rather hope you see the value of what I’m saying.

-modest

[nutronjon]

Originally Posted by modest

I said John wasn't Greek, I didn't say there was no Greek influence in the bible. Here is me talking in a previous thread:



-modest

Okay, so when the bible speaks of Jesus being the word, or Logos, this is a Greek concept, right? My argument that seems to be dragging on for an eternity and going no where, is that we can consider the evolved Greek understanding, reason, is the controlling force of the universe- as a concept of God. What follows is that by studying nature, we can infer something about God. However, this God is not a sentient diety such as the God of Abraham, which is a humanized like Zeus. This concept of God is a concept of cause and effect, of energy and forces such as gravity, that we can study scientifically and contemplate abstractly.

[nutronjon]

Originally Posted by modest

In any case, I would personally appreciate it if you didn’t turn every thread into a discussion of Greek or Roman philosophy. I do understand it is a topic of great interest to you, but it’s not always applicable. I don’t mean this as an attack. I rather hope you see the value of what I’m saying.

-modest

There are people killing and being killed in the name of democracy, while our democracy is so preverted it is not worth defending, and I should stop talking about democracy because you are not interested in the subject? Ah, in threads arguing that God doesn't exist, can I speak of the Greek concept of reason, being a concept of God, that is important to the establishment of democracy? Or should I just go away?

[modest]

Originally Posted by nutronjon

Okay, so when the bible speaks of Jesus being the word, or Logos, this is a Greek concept, right?

Some people make the argument that the word logos in the first few verses of John is significant - that it relates to the Greek philosophy of the same name. I'm not sure of this - neither am I sure that the original "St. John" was written in Greek.

Originally Posted by nutronjon

My argument that seems to be dragging on for an eternity and going no where, is that we can consider the evolved Greek understanding, reason, is the controlling force of the universe- as a concept of God. What follows is that by studying nature, we can infer something about God. However, this God is not a sentient diety such as the God of Abraham, which is a humanized like Zeus. This concept of God is a concept of cause and effect, of energy and forces such as gravity, that we can study scientifically and contemplate abstractly.

Yes, this is your argument. I've seen it in another thread. It has nothing to do with the topic here. In my opinion it has nothing to do with the first chapter of John. You can't apply you argument to any place the Greek word logos is used. John says clearly what it means. "The word" in that chapter obviously refers to the scripture - the Hebrew scripture - the old testament.

In any case, it's way off topic here. Start a thread on the first chapter of John and how it relates to "logos" and I'll discuss it with you.

-modest

[REASON]

Originally Posted by nutronjon

reason, is the controlling force of the universe

In what way does reason control the force of gravity?

How does reason affect the transmission of electromagnetic energy?

Why can't you recognize that this overly reiterated position of yours regarding reason and god and so on, is so unreasonable from a scientific standpoint?

Why can't you stay on topic in your own thread?

[nutronjon]

Originally Posted by REASON

In what way does reason control the force of gravity?

How does reason affect the transmission of electromagnetic energy?

Why can't you recognize that this overly reiterated position of yours regarding reason and god and so on, is so unreasonable from a scientific standpoint?

Why can't you stay on topic in your own thread?

Gravity is the reason things fall to earth.

When my grandmother was a teacher, she would read moral stories such as "The Little Red Hen" and the "The Little Engine that Could" and then ask, what is the moral of that story? The moral is the cause of the effect. Science helps us understand the cause of the effect, and that is the reason things are as they are. Things happen for a reason, and humans have struggled to know the reason.

Not that long ago, everyone would have understood what I am saying, and they would know what science has to do with democracy and making moral decisions. Frankly, I have been in a state of shock, as a result to the reaction to what I am saying.

In the 1920's a newspaper warned, "Given our known oil supply and rate of consumption, we are headed for economic disaster and possibly war." What can we know from that statement? We can know, if our consumption of oil is greater than our supply, the world is in trouble. President Carter knew this and lead us to conserve energy. Reagan lied to us, by telling us conservation was not necessary, and he built up our economic, political and military presence in the mid east. Hillary and McCain have attempted to win our votes by telling us they will cut the tax we pay for gasoline. Obama told us the truth, that cutting taxes would increase demand, and this would be a bad thing. REASON IS THE CONTROLLING FORCE, NOT A GOD WE PLEASE WITH OUR WORSHIP, NOT OUR DESIRE TO HAVE WHAT WE WANT WITH THE FALSE IDEA THAT ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE FOR US, AND WE JUST NEED A PRESIDENT WHO GIVES US WHAT WE WANT. Only when we look at things scientifically, can we make truly moral decisions, because the moral is a matter of cause and effect. We once prepared all citizens to understand what I am saying, and today, in a science forum, I am being warned to watch my step for saying what I am saying.

The democracy we once defended in war, has been forgotten. Thousands of years of wisdom, that has been carefully chosen and passed down for centuries is now lost to well educated people, and those who speak of this past wisdom that brought us to science and democracy, are the enemy. I am going to my garden, and wish to God I could empty my mind of thoughts of this reality. How wonderful it would be to think only frivolous thoughts that don't matter, and desire only to be liked.

[freeztar]

Originally Posted by REASON

Why can't you stay on topic in your own thread?

Back on topic, can you answer the first question I asked you in this thread Nutronjon?

[REASON]

Originally Posted by nutronjon

reason, is the controlling force of the universe

Originally Posted by REASON

In what way does reason control the force of gravity?

Originally Posted by nutronjon

Gravity is the reason things fall to earth.

nutronjon,

Are you able to recognize the fallacy in the sequence above?

Are you able to recognize your inconsistent usage of the term "reason" in the sequence above?

Are you aware that this type of communication leads to misunderstanding, disagreements, and challenges to your thought process?

Are you really so shocked and saddened by the response you're getting when this is the way you have been communicating your ideas?

Do you really think that someone's open and direct rejection of the kind of logic you espouse above is tantamount to policing your thoughts?


Personally, I think accusing someone of policing thoughts is a serious charge against their honor and integrity. It is a direct attack on their character and credibility.

What is the goal of leveling such an attack, nutron?