God is in the fourth dimension.

[Glenn Lyvers]

I was reading some interesting commentary by Hud Hudson, in which he examines the principle benefits to theists for the belief in a fourth dimension.

Hudson comments that if God is perfect, there exists the classic idea that he would have created a perfect world, and Hudson acknowledges that it seems intuitively wrong to think this is as good as it gets.

A theist can say that because we only perceive the world in the 3rd dimension, then it is possible that the evils we see in the world are not evil at all - it is simply our perception, which is skewed due to our limitations. Of course this type of thinking comes with other problems.

Feel free to comment on the idea, but I'm posting to ask if anyone knows other articles like this - of religion and the fourth dimension.

Thanks.

[Moontanman]

While I prefer 11 dimensional brane theory I know I have absolutely no evidence to back it up. I have to say that humans are not limited to the 3rd dimension we perceive four dimensions quite well if we didn't we have have no sense of the past, future, movement or even time it's self. At the very least a god like being would have to exist in a 5 dimensional form but for god to really be aware of and control of absolutely everything possible would take 11 dimensions.


My BS Is just as good as your BS

[modest]

Originally Posted by Glenn Lyvers

Hudson comments that if God is perfect, there exists the classic idea that he would have created a perfect world, and Hudson acknowledges that it seems intuitively wrong to think this is as good as it gets.

Alexander Pope disagrees,

But errs not Nature from this gracious end,
From burning suns when livid deaths descend,
When earthquakes swallow, or when tempests sweep
Towns to one grave, whole nations to the deep?
"No," 'tis replied," the first Almighty Cause
Acts not by partial but by gen'ral laws;
Th'exceptions few; some change since all began
And what created perfect?"--Why then man?
If the great end be human happiness,
Then Nature deviates; and can man do less?
As much that end a constant course requires
Of showers and sunshine, as of man's desires;
As much eternal springs and cloudless skies,
As men for ever temp'rate, calm, and wise.
If plagues or earthquakes break not Heav'n's design,
Why then a Borgia or a Cataline?
Who knows but He, whose hand the lightning forms,
Who heaves old ocean, and who wings the storms;
Pours fierce ambition in a Cæsar's mind,
Or turns young Ammon loose to scourge mankind?
From pride, from pride, our very reas'ning springs;
Account for moral as for natural things:
Why charge we Heav'n in those, in these acquit?
In both, to reason right is to submit.

Better for us, perhaps, it might appear,
Were there all harmony, all virtue here;
That never air or ocean felt the wind,
That never passion discomposed the mind:
But all subsists by elemental strife;
And passions are the elements of life.
The gen'ral order, since the whole began,
Is kept in Nature, and is kept in Man.

<...>

Cease, then, nor Order imperfection name;
Our proper bliss depends on what we blame.
Know thy own point: this kind, this due degree
Of blindness, weakness, Heav'n bestows on thee.
Submit: in this or any other sphere,
Secure to be as bless'd as thou canst bear;
Safe in the hand of one disposing Power,
Or in the natal or the mortal hour.
All Nature is but Art unknown to thee;
All chance direction, which thou canst not see;
All discord, harmony not understood;
All partial evil, universal good:
And spite of Pride, in erring Reason's spite,
One truth is clear, Whatever is, is right.

Poets' Corner - Alexander Pope - Essay on Man

Allowing me to translate: the world only seems imperfect if you assume a perfect God created Nature for the purpose of serving humanity. If you assume God/the universe does not favor humans then there's nothing inherently 'un-perfect' about the world. It is... as it should be. It always struck me as incredibly arrogant to think of myself as something for which this universe was created. But... to each their own I guess.

~modest

[Glenn Lyvers]

Modest,

That's a very good point. I have often wondered why men assume the universe is for us (setting aside theology for such thoughts of course).

I don't want to digress too far but, there could be other creatures for whom it was made, and maybe we are a snack or something. I don't really think that, but anything is possible - and you are right, in so far as it is arrogant for use to proclaim we have the absolute answer - thus we are definitively the ones the universe were made for etc. (assuming anything was made of course).

I will ignore your notation "It always struck me as incredibly arrogant to think of myself as something for which this universe was created." Because to imply that you "always" thought that, would be to imply the secondary implicit idea, that you think the universe was "created" - and I would not want to point out anything that would seem to support you inadvertently suggesting you believe in creation.

[Glenn Lyvers]

Originally Posted by Moontanman

While I prefer 11 dimensional brane theory I know I have absolutely no evidence to back it up. I have to say that humans are not limited to the 3rd dimension we perceive four dimensions quite well if we didn't we have have no sense of the past, future, movement or even time it's self. At the very least a god like being would have to exist in a 5 dimensional form but for god to really be aware of and control of absolutely everything possible would take 11 dimensions.


My BS Is just as good as your BS

I know... it's far fetched. I am not buying it either. I just find ideas like this interesting to think about.

[modest]

Originally Posted by Glenn Lyvers

I will ignore your notation "It always struck me as incredibly arrogant to think of myself as something for which this universe was created." Because to imply that you "always" thought that, would be to imply the secondary implicit idea, that you think the universe was "created" - and I would not want to point out anything that would seem to support you inadvertently suggesting you believe in creation.

No need to ignore, you can ask. I was raised Baptist and really became something of a hard-core Jesus freak as a youngster. And, yes, even in the height of my delirium I realized I was being arrogant to think the universe was created for the likes of me. I'm very agnostic now realizing that I currently have no way of explaining the existence of the universe. I realize no religion does either.

~modest

[freeztar]

Originally Posted by Glenn Lyvers

I was reading some interesting commentary by Hud Hudson, in which he examines the principle benefits to theists for the belief in a fourth dimension.

Hudson comments that if God is perfect, there exists the classic idea that he would have created a perfect world, and Hudson acknowledges that it seems intuitively wrong to think this is as good as it gets.

A theist can say that because we only perceive the world in the 3rd dimension, then it is possible that the evils we see in the world are not evil at all - it is simply our perception, which is skewed due to our limitations.

The fourth dimension is commonly referred to as time. So, in this case, God=time. This is a much more interesting idea, imho, than what Hudson proposes (note: I haven't read his stuff and am basing this solely on what you have written - I'll go read it now though)

Of course this type of thinking comes with other problems.

Indeed. The first one that came to mind is that it makes morality obsolete. If "bad" things are due to our perception, rather than the inherent perfectness we can not perceive, then it seems, logically, that we could never do anything wrong (at least in 4 dimensional terms).

[lawcat]

I consider dimensions as references, so I would not go as far as to say that God is a dimension, or belongs solely in some dimension. References are for us, by us -- FUBU. :-) And, time is certainly a functional reference--the fourth dimension--for us by us; although, mass could just as well do the trick, or energy for that matter; or, in some contexts consciousness.

Whichever fourth dimension one adopts, we live in it, and perceiveit; otherwise it would be absurd to even refer to it.

I do not know many people who assume that universe is for us. But, the planet is for us--that is the general assumption; this planet is for us.

[modest]

Originally Posted by lawcat

I do not know many people who assume that universe is for us. But...

Followers of the Abrahamic religions (Jewish, Christian, Muslim) who follow the Torah/Bible/Tawrat historically believed the universe was created for man. For example, Gen. 1:14-19 says that the sun, moon, and stars were created to "give light upon the earth".

This seemed reasonable at the time because the universe was believed to be not much larger than the earth. People of the middle east of the time pictured the sky as something like an ocean above the atmosphere. Egyptians believed the sun sailed in a boat across the ocean of the sky during the day. Genesis describes something similar. The sky above the atmosphere being made of water. So, of course, the sky and all the lights in it were made for the earth. At least, that's what the book says

We now know the universe is a very large place which existed for quite a long time before humans showed up. What percent of creationists currently believe the universe was created alongside the earth, to serve the earth, I don't know.

Originally Posted by lawcat

But, the planet is for us--that is the general assumption; this planet is for us.

Why do you say this? Do you have a scientific source to backup such a claim?

~modest

[Glenn Lyvers]

Freeztar...

The fourth dimension is commonly referred to as time. So, in this case, God=time. This is a much more interesting idea, imho, than what Hudson proposes (note: I haven't read his stuff and am basing this solely on what you have written - I'll go read it now though)

Of course you are right. However, in this particular case, Hudson is referring to spacial dimension. I'm sure you have read Flatland. He references this. I can write a little bit about it is you are unfamiliar.

Glenn