Origin of the universe: god versus no god

[vetrad]

Hello all,

I have a fairly basic question which is hard to answer with certainty, but I appreciate any input. As almost all of us do, at some point, I am curious as to the origins of the universe and what is behind it all. The meaning of life, so to speak.


I have a fairly scientific background (Veterinarian) and have held a firm belief in evolution and explaining away 'why we are here' by random circumstance because the earth is where it is. I (frankly, reluctantly) accompany my wife to church a few time a month and the pastor recently said something that got me thinking.

Before I write this, understand, I am thinking about where we are in the perspective of everything, outside our universe. If I were to be able to travel to the edge of the most distant star, what is out there...The pastor discussed time and mentioned that god created time and knows (and created) all. If you apply that to outside our universe, and the physics of time, this makes sense to me based on the BASIC understanding I know. It seems there could be a man behind the curtain sort of thing. The concept of life on earth seems almost intentional when you consider our atmosphere, magnetic field, rate of core cooling, distance from the sun, etc.

Sorry for the long question. Basically, I am searching for meaning to my life. I am looking for proof that I am a mass of material that occurred by randomness.

[LaurieAG]

Hi Vetrad,

Good point although this should probably be in Philosophy of Science.

You do raise interesting questions about 'creationist' science and its implications in the physical sciences particularly cosmology.

[Boerseun]

Originally Posted by vetrad

Hello all,

Well, howdy!

Originally Posted by vetrad

I have a fairly basic question which is hard to answer with certainty, but I appreciate any input. As almost all of us do, at some point, I am curious as to the origins of the universe and what is behind it all. The meaning of life, so to speak.

That's the reason all of us are here!

Originally Posted by vetrad

Before I write this, understand, I am thinking about where we are in the perspective of everything, outside our universe. If I were to be able to travel to the edge of the most distant star, what is out there...

If you were to instantly travel to the edge of the observable universe, you would see exactly what you see currerntly in the vicinity of the Milky Way - with a visible horizon also 15 billion light years away, in all directions - because the universe is an unfolding hypersphere, with the edge being in the past. A bit of a mind-twister, I know - but the edge of the universe is fifteen billion light years away, from all points in the universe, simultaneously. You can simply never reach it. Hence, there's nothing "outside" of it that can "pull any strings" inside of it. No "outside" of the universe = no God. If there is a God, or a creator of any kind, he must exist within the fifteen billion light years that you observe all around you. He may very well exist outside of it, but there is no way for God to interact with the universe in that case, in which case worshipping Him, praying to Him and following Him is pointless - the info simply won't get to Him.

Originally Posted by vetrad

The pastor discussed time and mentioned that god created time and knows (and created) all. If you apply that to outside our universe, and the physics of time, this makes sense to me based on the BASIC understanding I know.

Pastors, priests, and the clergy in general, are notoriously bad authorities on matters scientifical. I wouldn't quote them nor mull too much on their insights, or lack thereof, regarding Science in general.

Originally Posted by vetrad

It seems there could be a man behind the curtain sort of thing.

As I explained, there is no "curtain" to be behind of. If there is a God, he simply must be within the 15-billion year horizon of the universe in order to interact with humanity in any way. As a matter of fact, the Bible puts the crucifiction of Christ at around 30AD - give or take a year. That's 1979 years ago that God sent his Son down to Earth, according to the Christians. This, of course, means that God's co-ordinates in space must be somewhere in a sphere with a radius of 1979 light years centered on Earth. Because not even God can outfly light. If God did indeed created everything, he imposed that speed limit on Himself. Can't blame us - it was his bad. But be that as it may, we haven't detected any hint of a "God" or a "Paradise" or any such thing in this tiny corner of the Milky Way (it's more than 20,000 light years to the Galactic centre - God's location must therefore be in our neck of the woods).

Imagining there's a "man behind the curtain" is a perfectly natural feeling - imagining that there's some control and purpose. But if you let go of all those intellectual pretentions and, well, fear of a purposeless life in a pointless world, then you get to see Life in all its glory for what it is. There's no imaginary boogeymen controlling things - hell, a burning schoolbus should be proof enough. The existence in this world of things like pedophiles (created by God) to completely screw up the lives of young kids (innocent, also created by God, now scarred for life) should be more proof. If there is indeed a creator, then I submit to you that he's a bumbling fool, or evil. The evidence towards that is, at least, clear.

Originally Posted by vetrad

The concept of life on earth seems almost intentional when you consider our atmosphere, magnetic field, rate of core cooling, distance from the sun, etc.

Everything on Earth seems to suit humanity down to a "t". So it seems intentional. It seems planned. Until you consider that we've evolved over eons of time to suit this particular environment.. If we evolved on a planet where our sky was red, and we breathed carbon monoxide, and our blood was green and our oceans vast seas of sulphuric acid, then we would have evolved over time to suit that, and we would have thought that scenario to be perfectly natural, and a place like Earth to be an inhospitable hell.

Originally Posted by vetrad

Basically, I am searching for meaning to my life. I am looking for proof that I am a mass of material that occurred by randomness.

There was no randomness in your birth. Your birth was the result of a chain of events almost 4 billion years long. There are millions and millions of individual events that took place over the last four billion years, that finally resulted in you. What you make with your short tenure on this planet, is entirely up to you. There is no higher calling, there is no higher authority, there is no bigger purpose or reason. You've got this one shot at life, and you better make it count. Because for whatever you do during your stretch on Earth, you will not be punished or rewarded for it afterwards. Morality and moral behaviour is its own reward. You get to pick what floats your boat, and run with it. Immortality is achieved by having kids - your genes go forward. There is nothing more to it than that. But take a moment and appreciate the grandness of it all. You don't need a Creator or any alternative moral authority to be a good person and to live a good life. Attempting to shift the moral responsibilty towards an invisible uber-ghost is cowardice, in the very least. You should take responsibility for your life and actions, and shun these charlatans into the history books, where they belong.

And that's about it. But there's nobody and nothing "behind the curtain".

[maddog]

Originally Posted by vetrad

I have a fairly basic question which is hard to answer with certainty, but I appreciate any input. As almost all of us do, at some point, I am curious as to the origins of the universe and what is behind it all. The meaning of life, so to speak.

In case I haven't already -- Welcome to Hypography!

Your question, though being a great question is not all that basic. It is one all of scientific
types ponder about: the beginning of it all.

Originally Posted by vetrad

I have a fairly scientific background (Veterinarian) and have held a firm belief in evolution and explaining away 'why we are here' by random circumstance because the earth is where it is. I (frankly, reluctantly) accompany my wife to church a few time a month and the pastor recently said something that got me thinking.

That is their [clergy] function -- to get us to think.

Originally Posted by vetrad

Before I write this, understand, I am thinking about where we are in the perspective of everything, outside our universe. If I were to be able to travel to the edge of the most distant star, what is out there...The pastor discussed time and mentioned that god created time and knows (and created) all. If you apply that to outside our universe, and the physics of time, this makes sense to me based on the BASIC understanding I know. It seems there could be a man behind the curtain sort of thing. The concept of life on earth seems almost intentional when you consider our atmosphere, magnetic field, rate of core cooling, distance from the sun, etc.

The notion of "edge" comes with required definition of "what is the geometry" of said
Universe. Without which an answer to, is hard to assess what is out at the "edge".
So whether the Universe is "open" or "closed", this is still has not been fully settled.
In BBT, in the initial expansion (at some point), time and space do get "created". To say
that a "creator" or entity did this is to me a theological question. Not to say that I am
an Atheist (which I am Not). It is just hard to answer in any scientific way at the moment.

Originally Posted by vetrad

Sorry for the long question. Basically, I am searching for meaning to my life. I am looking for proof that I am a mass of material that occurred by randomness.

As I continually ponder the meaning and/or purpose to mine.

[Pyrotex]

Hi Vetrad,
I feel compassion for your situation, being dragged to church every now and then.
When I visit my mother or brothers, I too, have to trudge along and listen to some person try to make excuses for God. Their attempts to show how science is flawed are so naive that I cringe.

One preacher even spoke of the 'man behind the curtain' analogy, saying that since God created space and time, he is "outside" space and time, and can instantly be anywhere and anywhen.

But he never attempted to deal with the paradoxes you encounter by assuming a God not bounded by time. For example, you pray to God to heal your daughter. Let's say that your daughter gets well a week later.

But when God heard your prayer, he looked up into the future and already knew she was going to get well. In fact, he already knew that he himself would heal her next week. In fact, when he made the world, he looked up and already knew that 4 billion years later you would have a daughter and that she would get sick and that you would pray and that he would kill the germs and she would get better.

So God cannot intervene. If he changed anything, he would have already known he would change things. So actually, nothing changed! Your prayer was meaningless and it all works out the way it was carved in stone to work out. And it really IS carved in stone, because God already and always knew exactly how it was going to work out.

Unless of course, he isn't omnipotent and omniscient. Which means he's not a 'god'. At best he's an engineer. And therefore bound by all the Laws of Nature, and therefore could not possibly have 'created' time or space. What a demotion!!

[Boerseun]

Originally Posted by Pyrotex

At best he's an engineer. What a demotion!!

HEY!!!

Some of my best friends are engineers!!! Whaddaya mean "demotion"?!?! I think becoming an able and competent engineer is the best any possible god can aspire to!

[Qfwfq]

Originally Posted by Pyrotex

So God cannot intervene. If he changed anything, he would have already known he would change things. So actually, nothing changed! Your prayer was meaningless and it all works out the way it was carved in stone to work out. And it really IS carved in stone, because God already and always knew exactly how it was going to work out.

Well, theological fatalism has been noticed and discussed at least since the time of St. Augustine.

[Pyrotex]

Oh, you mean theological fatalism like this:

The Paradox of God and the Fruit Bowl
By Nelson Thompson
October, 2003

True Believer wrote:
I walk up to a fruit bowl, and there is one apple and one banana left.
I choose the apple.
God already knew that I would choose the apple.
But did God force me to choose the apple?
Was it really predetermined that I would choose the apple?
Or did God merely have knowledge of what the outcome of the
Appliance of my free will to this certain situation would be?

I respond:
You walk up to a fruit bowl.
God already knows that you will choose the apple.

But you have free will and you choose the banana.

This REALLY pisses off God.
He smites you with a massive heart attack,
And you die with a big bite of un-chewed banana
Lodged half way down your esophagus.
He rips your soul from your stiffening corpse
And flings it with contempt
Into the flaming pits of Hell’s deepest abyss.

Then God looks around a little shame-faced and says,
"Er...ah...I always knew this would happen.
Really. I've known it ever since the Creation.
This happened exactly according to my Eternal Plan!
And anybody who says otherwise is SMUCKING TOAST!!!"

The angels and demons look at each other nervously.
They say, "That's right God! You da Man! You da Man!"

And so it goes.

[Jway]

Originally Posted by vetrad

Hello all,

I have a fairly basic question which is hard to answer with certainty, but I appreciate any input. As almost all of us do, at some point, I am curious as to the origins of the universe and what is behind it all. The meaning of life, so to speak.

I don't know if I saw a question mark in your whole post. LOL.

Before I write this, understand, I am thinking about where we are in the perspective of everything, outside our universe. If I were to be able to travel to the edge of the most distant star, what is out there...The pastor discussed time and mentioned that god created time and knows (and created) all. If you apply that to outside our universe, and the physics of time, this makes sense to me based on the BASIC understanding I know. It seems there could be a man behind the curtain sort of thing.

IMO, the "edge of the universe" like the "entity behind the curtain" need not be thought of as way over there, beyond 'me.' I believe you can find both going within. Deep within perhaps. As if universe is (forever) expanding inwards as well as outwards. Depends on how you choose to look at 'things.'

It has never really ever made sense to me that Creator would be inherently outside of Creation, and does make sense that Creator is a) still Creating, b) is within you / within all and c) is not beyond evolving. Though I would add on that Creator is not subject to physical evolution. That is arguable, but for me, jury is still out on whether physical actually exists.

Anyway, I realize I'm perhaps on different tangent than your question, what physics studies and what even your pastor was implying. I'm offering perspective and another way to look at virtually the same thing(s).

Sorry for the long question. Basically, I am searching for meaning to my life. I am looking for proof that I am a mass of material that occurred by randomness.

In my worldview, you are the "man behind the curtain" when it comes to vast majority of what you experience. And for that which you are not the "one and only" you are (well) connected to that which is at One with known Universe. Go within if proof is what you seek. Knock and the door will be opened.

Keep on keeping on,
Jway

[Qfwfq]

Originally Posted by Pyrotex

They say, "That's right God! You da Man! You da Man!"

...da whaaaaaaat?

Calling Him da man is almost like calling Him an engineer!