What is "religion"?

[alexander]

In this thread i would like to discuss what religion actually is. There seems to be a lot of confusion between people of what religion is, how religions differ from other belief systems. I would like to point out that just because something ends with "ism" or someone considers a belief system to be a religion, does not mean that it actually is a religion.

For those who are (and i would be) too lazy to go and read the thread this is coming from, let me restate what has been said (and i hope people who have joined me in this discussion will come here and briefly rephrase their concerns, support, extension and such.

Basically I said that all religions follow the 3 basic rules of religions:

1) they all offer salvation
2) they all follow precise theology
3) they recruit people into their ranks, as i have said either passively or actively

Concepts, and i am not calling all of these as religions, as that is not decided yet that have been discussed are:

Buddhism
Animism
Judeo-Christian group of religions (Judaism, Christianity, Catholicism, etc)
Shinto (please use the propper name, shintoism is not ok)

Like i said, lets not get caught on the "ism"s, the fact that its an ism does not mean that its necessarily a religion. Buddhism for example, contrary to what some people think, is not a religion. It is a philosophy, written by a philosoper, it claims no higher being, but does promiss nirvana through understanding the true nature of reality. Unlike a religion, Buddhism is a collection of ideas about how this world works, how we work, and how through viewing reality in a different way, and detatching oneself from hanging on to one's experiences, reveals the nature that has no un-ease.... (something like that)

Animism is also not a religion, because animism describes a type of a belief, its along the lines as saying monotheism, monotheism like animism is not a religion in itself.

Shinto, is a religion and follows the rules above.

and lets pick up from there

[C1ay]

Religion is a very broad term, not a narrowly defined one. According to 3 sources:

Originally Posted by Oxford English Dictionary

Religion • noun
1 the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
2 a particular system of faith and worship.
3 a pursuit or interest followed with devotion.

Originally Posted by Merriam Webster

Religion
Pronunciation: \ri-ˈli-jən\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Anglo-French religiun, Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back — more at rely
Date: 13th century

1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

Originally Posted by Dictionary.com

Religion
–noun
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
7. religions, Archaic. religious rites.
8. Archaic. strict faithfulness; devotion: a religion to one's vow.
—Idiom
9. get religion, Informal.
a. to acquire a deep conviction of the validity of religious beliefs and practices.
b. to resolve to mend one's errant ways: The company got religion and stopped making dangerous products.
Origin:
1150–1200; ME religioun (< OF religion) < L religiōn- (s. of religiō) conscientiousness, piety, equiv. to relig(āre) to tie, fasten (re- re- + ligāre to bind, tie; cf. ligament ) + -iōn- -ion; cf. rely

BTW...

Originally Posted by alexander

Like i said, lets not get caught on the "ism"s, the fact that its an ism does not mean that its necessarily a religion. Buddhism for example, contrary to what some people think, is not a religion.

Originally Posted by Oxford English Dictionary

Buddhism
/booddiz’m/
• noun a religion or philosophy, founded by Siddartha Gautama (Buddha; c.563-c.460 BC), which teaches that elimination of the self is the route to enlightenment.

Originally Posted by Merriam Webster

Bud·dhism
Pronunciation: \ˈbü-ˌdi-zəm, ˈbu̇-\
Function: noun
Date: 1801

: a religion of eastern and central Asia growing out of the teaching of Gautama Buddha that suffering is inherent in life and that one can be liberated from it by mental and moral self-purification

Originally Posted by Dictionary.com

Bud⋅dhism
  /ˈbudɪzəm, ˈbʊdɪz-/
–noun
a religion, originated in India by Buddha (Gautama) and later spreading to China, Burma, Japan, Tibet, and parts of southeast Asia, holding that life is full of suffering caused by desire and that the way to end this suffering is through enlightenment that enables one to halt the endless sequence of births and deaths to which one is otherwise subject.

Why is your declaration that "Buddhism is not a religion" any more authoritative than the sources I have listed which claim that it is?

[Moontanman]

What about pagans? Where do they fit in? I am currently doing a little bit of writing for some Pagans, poetry mostly, they seem to be a nice bunch of mostly women.

It would be so easy to be flippant about religion but even atheists must agree that people who believe are quite serious. They see no problem what so ever with believing in the idea of the supernatural. I have often wondered if the human mind somehow needs the belief in things unseen to operate. Even atheists often believe in things beyond their keen, much of science is beyond my complete understanding but I believe the basic premise to be true.

To me religion requires magical thinking to start with, I think that is one thing we can say all religions share. So magical thinking is high on my list of things that are "Religion"

[alexander]

Originally Posted by Clay

Why is your declaration that "Buddhism is not a religion" any more authoritative than the sources I have listed which claim that it is?

Wait so you can't just take my word for it? lame, we scientists, and by we i mean you (i dont know that i would add myself to the list, i'm just a dedicated smart-ass) are all alike :P

I am glad that you ask of why i do not call buddhism a religion

I do not call buddhism a religion for the very reason you have posted actually, because depending on what you read, it seems to be one thing or another, and that is because everyone who studies this "phenomenon" makes up their own mind about it

On one hand buddhism is a religion, and as such follows the above rules. Looking at it from that historic perspective, yes, a 29 year old Prince Siddhartha decides to go off into 6 years of solitude at which point he renounces the world and has a relevation as he is meditating under a Bo tree one day. Yes, much like Moses when he goes up on the mountain and returns with a list of commandments, prince returned back with his teachings, teachings that primiss salvation through overlooking one's own suffering, the only way to Nirvana, was through suppressing one's own desires that he claimed caused the suffering in the first place, Nirvana being the supreme spirit by the way. He then returned and for the rest of his days, 45 years, traveled preaching his doctrine. (hopefully thats a clear cut proof that if you wish to call buddhism a religion, you very well can)

On the other hand, if one overlooks the spirituality, then buddhism becomes a philosophy of how to live one's life, the teachings are actually reflected in many cultures, through many centuries and seem to come up independently in different parts of the world, but usually through the word of mouth, actually this i know for a fact, from reading about some really old teachings of Rus, and buddha simply compiled them in his head and wrote them down. And it didnt come out 1/2 bad, personally i like to look at the best of what people have done, and come to respect them for it, so i respect the prince for his philosophy, and so does some part of the buddhist following...

So we arrive at cross roads, its a philosophy if you look at it from one side, and a religion if you look at it from the other... sirs, we have ourselves an enlightening delema, on one hand it acts like a wave, but on the other hand it has properties of a particle

also note, that all the definitions share the 3 rules i presented above, they all contain the 3 things i outlined earlier.... bestranginating, now isn't it? wait, enstrangifying? i dunno

Listen i am not arguing, simply presenting my point of view, that i arrived at after studying the patterns of what properties something that is considered a religion actually exhibit, and thus how we, looking at a belief system, can with some certainty proclaim it to be or not be a religion...

Originally Posted by Moon

What about pagans?

Well what do you want to know? we are not passing judgement on any belief systems here!

Paganism, like Animism is not any one single religion, its a property that desribes a certain type of a belief... I can probably call out at least a 1/2 dozen religions that are all "pagan", they vary from monotheistic to polytheistic religions, some are also animistic, some are syncretistic... here simple example that we have discussed, Shinto is a religion that can be described as pagan...

Pagan, in its broadest describes any non Judeo-christian religion (i.e. not chsitian, catholic, jewish or islamic), it just means rural or rustic or one of those "old tradition" things

Usually in the US, term pagan (as in "i'm pagan") is used to describe wicca or native american belief systems...

[sman]

Originally Posted by alexander

Basically I said that all religions follow the 3 basic rules of religions:

1) they all offer salvation
2) they all follow precise theology
3) they recruit people into their ranks, as i have said either passively or actively

Well, I’ll just relax then, knowing you’ve got it all pinned down. Just let me know when you come out with an antidote.

Originally Posted by alexander

Like i said, lets not get caught on the "ism"s, the fact that its an ism does not mean that its necessarily a religion.

A suffix forming action nouns from verbs in loanwords from Greek. On this model, in the modern language, it can denote practice, state or condition, adherence….criticism, barbarism, witticism, plagiarism…. Is all this talk an effort to distance religion from atheism? Let’s be careful of favorable conclusions. Check ‘em again.

Definitions are descriptions, not prescriptions. Buddhism is considered a religion by, well, Buddhists. This is why lexicographers describe it as one.

Originally Posted by alexander

Shinto, is a religion and follows the rules above.

Shinto ism arginal in many respects and I don’t think, because it meets your criteria, we should lump it with Islamic Fanaticism while others, like Sikhism, are left out.


Yes, I’m being blatantly transparent that I don’t think you’ve hit the nail exactly on the head from your armchair. But I don’t think this is a misguided enterprise, nor a bad place to start. I’m on your side here. Sorry I don’t have more time tonight as I think this chianti is about to hijack my post. Suffice to say, I’m on board (an I’m watchin’ you).

[Qfwfq]

Golly I wish I had more time to participate, it would take quite a bit of time because the topic is so vast!

Buddhism is typically defined by the learned as being "a religious and philosophical doctrine" so it isn't a point to argue which one it is and which it isn't. One can certainly dicuss one or the other aspect as a topic and, accordingly, scholars will sometimes specify "philosophical Buddhism" or "religious Buddhism" to say what is being discussed or referred to. In particular, Zen Buddhism is often described as an anti-philosophy, while also being a philosophy and indeed the contradictory is a quite intrinsic part of Zen.

Shinto (or even Shintoi) from what I've just been reading seems to comply much less with those three requisites than seemed by what Alex had said. It allows followers to freely follow other religions too, indeed most Japanese are also Buddhist and it is common to celebrate a birth with Shinto rite and use Buddhist ones for a funeral. It has only recently had a central theological authority but doesn't have what I would call a precise theology; important and worthy paople can come to be among the worshipped Kami. It can also be regarded as one form of Animism, since everything and everyone has a Kami.

I can agree with saying that Animism "isn't a religion", in the sense that it isn't one religion; it is a type of religion or religious belief/practice, a category of them. One could say pretty much the same about Christianity...

All in all, the core meaning of this latinate term lies in the matter of importance in one's life. One may be Deist (i. e. believe that some kind of god(s) exist) but without making it an important thing in life and hance not be religious; one may have a reverence for terranian things which is a form of religion. In many cases things like Nationalism go along with religion, hand in hand.

[C1ay]

Originally Posted by sman

Is all this talk an effort to distance religion from atheism?

Your question brings this essay to mind, Why I am not an atheist by Robert T. Carroll - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com

Originally Posted by R.T. Carroll

I don't believe any gods exist, but I'm not an atheist any more than I am an asantaclausist or an aeasterbunnyist. Not believing in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny doesn't commit me to an ideology or belief system shared with others who reject the notion that such creatures exist. My disbelief in leprechauns doesn't unite me with millions of other aleprechaunists. The label of 'atheist' is one that theists use to create the illusion that their belief in spirits has some substance....The atheist is a straw man created by theists. Every day there are hundreds of pious theists who write articles and books against atheism, as if atheism were a belief system....

[alexander]

Originally Posted by sman

Shinto ism arginal in many respects and I don’t think, because it meets your criteria, we should lump it with Islamic Fanaticism while others, like Sikhism, are left out.

Firstly, like i said, we are not passing any judgements onto any religion here. Also we just haven't discussed Sikhism and Islam here yet (though we did touch on judeo-christian religions, which would technically involve Islam). Sman, why is it that you seem to bring up Islam as if it's bad somehow?

As for Sikhism, very much a religion and it very much falls into the rules above.
1) Salvation through detatching oneself from worldly pursuits to break the endless cycle of reincarnation
2) Salvation is defined as gaining a spiritual union with God, very precise theology
3) It's in the name Sikhism, coming from sikh, maning disciple or learned...

Is all this talk an effort to distance religion from atheism?

As i have already stated, this has a sole purpose, to discuss what we call a "religion". Many of the recent threads in this very section have been calling the r-word out left and right at everything, somehow even science and atheism somehow became religions. I am not distancing anything from anything else, i am not passing judgement on any belief system, i dont do that, i am merely creating a thread that we can reference later, that at the end, i hope, agrees on what we call a religion.

Buddhism is considered a religion by, well, Buddhists.

Don't overgeneralize, do you know all the Budddhists in the world? Yeah i doubt that, and neither do i, and yet i know a person who considers himself to be buddhist, and lives by his teachings, that does not think of buddhism as a religion, and i am sure he is not alone...


By the way, i have so far seen a ton of opposition, which is fine, what you guys have failed to do so far is to present your side of the argument. Ok, so you don't agree with me, i'm ok with that, but what then do you call a religion? And dont give me links to dictionaries, i have asked a question, make your argument of what you think a religion is, and hey, either you will influence my views, i will influence yours, or we'll find that our views are pretty much the same and we'll agree to agree... Difference is, i approach this with an open mind, i dont believe that a religion should be only what i defined it to be, but my analysis seems to have a pattern, if you see a different one, and it makes sense, then by all means let's discuss that...


By the way, i meant to warn members or people who are thinking of joining just to jump in on this opportunity to claim their religion is the only one, the way to salvation, or that one religion is bad/wrong while others are good/right. This is not the topic to bring that up, this is a warning!

[C1ay]

Originally Posted by alexander

By the way, i have so far seen a ton of opposition, which is fine, what you guys have failed to do so far is to present your side of the argument.

I think I did exactly that. I claimed religion is a broad term and quoted a list of authoritative sources that support my claim. Religion is not a term that can be narrowly constrained down to a list of 3 or 4 items that determine something is a religion or not. It seems to be a term with a growing level of ambiguity in literary usage. This is compounded by the ambiguity of the term "God" which has given rise to Ignosticism. Who knows what they will mean 100 years from now.

[Qfwfq]

Originally Posted by alexander

i know a person who considers himself to be buddhist, and lives by his teachings, that does not think of buddhism as a religion, and i am sure he is not alone...

He isn't the only guy that describes his own religion as not being a religion. So it's the exact same matter: what is his definition of a religion? Does he say so because Buddhism doesn't comply with those three points?

Originally Posted by alexander

By the way, i have so far seen a ton of opposition, which is fine, what you guys have failed to do so far is to present your side of the argument. Ok, so you don't agree with me, i'm ok with that, but what then do you call a religion? And dont give me links to dictionaries, i have asked a question, make your argument of what you think a religion is,

Well, I more or less said what I think is the most general characteristic of a religion. In the example of your friend, the very fact that he lives according to the teachings of the Buddha, presumeably with the reverence that many people have for him and practicing certain rites, makes it his religion. If instead he doesn't have the reverence nor practices the rites, he can say it is his philosophy or doctrine of life but not his religion but he shouldn't say it isn't a religion, when it is such for many others. Has he never seen pictures of those Buddhist monks genuflecting?