[Tormod]

The whold damn universe is improbable. It doesn't mean we're not here, not does it mean that it was created by anyone.

[Pyrotex]

Originally Posted by Tormod

The whold damn universe is improbable. It doesn't mean we're not here, not does it mean that it was created by anyone.

Actually, the probability of this Universe existing is... [drum roll] ...
100%.
It exists.
Here we are.
Fait accompli.
Profundus carborundum est.
Pass the jug.

[ldsoftwaresteve]

Antti:

God brings unity and a calibration point to philosophy and ethics. Philosophy cannot attain equality between all humans without the concept of one God or Creator. Only this concept and idea can make all of us brothers and sisters with equal human rights.

I disagree. However, I do think that this is the central issue. You're trying to identify what it means to be human and then you subsume all of us within the category of a one god or creator as though we were the children of that creator. Assuming there is a God, we are all its children only in the sense that the sidewalk I poured last summer is one of my children.

The truth is we all belong to the species of Man, but not all of us behave in a human way. I for one do not consider all others of my species to be my brother or sister. Some choose to be human, some don't. I recognize affiliation only with those that are human. The rest are not welcome in my house.

Of course, we're left with the problem of identifying what it means to be 'human' and this issue is ignored for all practical purposes across the board by every religion and by every government.

We're the only species that chooses the identity that we become. And the most profound need we have is a moral code to guide us in the development of that identity.

I assume that you believe morality to be something we discover in the Bible.

But in my mind, morality is something to be discovered as the end result of a logical, non-contradictory set of identifications about our own nature and what the requirements of our survival dictate.

Morality needs to be understood because it's a characteristic of all members of the species of Man.

In the sense that the discovery of morality should be considered a rational pursuit using reason, this issue needs to be covered in this forum. Science has abdicated Morality long enough.

So, far from being something outside the realm of science, it's time science discovered what it means to be human.

[Pyrotex]

Originally Posted by ldsoftwaresteve

...The truth is we all belong to the species of Man, but not all of us behave in a human way. ....We're the only species that chooses the identity that we become. And the most profound need we have is a moral code to guide us in the development of that identity.
...In the sense that the discovery of morality should be considered a rational pursuit using reason, this issue needs to be covered in this forum. Science has abdicated Morality long enough....it's time science discovered what it means to be human.

Amen. Tell it like it is, brother. Rat on. Rat on.

[CerebralEcstasy]

Antti,

When a believing person looks at scientific fact they are even moreso convinced of God's existence. However, when an atheist looks at the same evidence they see something completely different.

Those who don't share a belief in God usually look at those who do with incredulity, simply because they can't believe we could be so gullible.

Fortunately this is a two-edged sword, as it takes as much faith in logical thought and evolution, as it does to have faith that God sent his only begotten son.

With that being said, if the creator of the universe does not feel it necessary to convince each and every person of his supremacy, who are we to try to convince them of it. There are clearly written passages in the bible that talk about such ones.

2 Cor. 4:4 states : 4 among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.

Acts 13:48 also states that those rightly disposed for eternal life, were fact believers.

48When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

So it matters not what the Christians think, nor what the Atheists think, but rather what God thinks.

[Edella]

Originally Posted by CerebralEcstasy

...it takes as much faith in logical thought ... as it does to have faith that God sent his only begotten son.

Quite a claim,but fair enough.Do you mean formal logic,or informal?Perhaps you are referring to Boolean logic or modal Logic,I don't know.The scope of logic is broad.Please clarify what you mean by "logical thought"and then show that faith is an integral part.

[KickAssClown]

This is a false statment.

[ughaibu]

It certainly is, it doesn't state anything.

[KickAssClown]

Ughaibu made a false statement.

Examine the Question closely, You took faith in that the statement was true in that it was false. However if it is true then it must be false correct?

Anyway, my point, however random it may seem is that Logic is a fickle creature. We can only assume things to be true, based on our limited capabilities to observe. We must have faith that the universe continues without us, and that people will be good to one another. Even in science there is no truth, only seemingly correct assumitions. Which stay as such until proven wrong. Or seemingly false assumetions that stay as such until proven right. Either way you have to have faith that the a given statement is sound, or not, either way you have to have faith. (Paradoxical statements abound! The circles make me dizzy)

I hope I confounded someone other than myself
-The Clown

[ughaibu]

Self referential paradoxes aren't statements.