[loarevalo]

You missed my point, majordinkidau. If we don't follow after the world and it's fashions and passions, and thus do our best to be modest, clean, virtuos, we are not over-occupied with the exterior. We precisely are to be modest so we can focus on our interior. Being modest means that we dress our appearence so that we're comfortable, proper, and don't purposely call attention on our selves, or on our appearence, so we can focus on what's important. How can dressing modestly be self-righteous or hypocritical?

Jesus said that nothing unclean can enter into His kingdom - of course he refered to spiritual purity, not physical. That we seek cleaning ourselves spiritually is not an excuse to forget about our physical body entirely. If our body's health meant absolutely nothing, Jesus wouldn't have been so merciful as to heal so many as he did. Yet, Jesus wanted mostly to heal people spiritually - that was his mission and He fulfilled it entirely (he didn't physically cure everyone in the world, but did cure spiritually everyone through his atoning sacrifice, if everyone would believe on him).

Being tidy and clean on the outside isn't a sign of faithfulness and righteousness. However, those that are faithfull and righteous can't help being modest on their appearences - they are modest by nature or by effect of their desire to live in harmony with God. Modesty is not only a standard for bodily appearence, it encompasses every aspect of our behaviour, so it also implies being humble, tender, merciful, loving, long-suffering, teachable, etc..

[dduckwessel]

Originally Posted by loarevalo

To continue, what about apostles? and the re-establishment of the church?
As I understand the Old Testament and Rev. 11:2 and other passager: Israel will be gathered right before the Second Coming, and the temple in Jerusalem will be built, and there will again be prophets (Rev. 11) preaching repentance to the people to prepare them for the "great and dreadful day of the Lord." Isaiah writes many things concerning the times of restitution that begins immediately before the Second Coming, and continues through the millenium, and after it until the devil is finally beaten (Rev. 20:10) and "death and hell were cast into the lake of fire."

It is the two witnesses in Revelation who re-establish the true gospel.

As I understand, Duckweesel said the chuch would be re-established as Christ comes. I say, the church must be re-established before He comes, to prepare us. If we are expecting the Second Coming, should we not observe the signs and thus expect for the re-establishment of His church?

I said the true church would be re-established 'before' Jesus returns.

Jesus said he would come as thief during the night (meaning, we don't know exactly when He comes, until He has come) - so, it is clear some people will miss out on the re-establishment of the Church. When seeking after the Church, if it is here already, what do we look for? what do we expect the re-established Church to be like?

We can know by the 'times' when His return is close - no one will 'miss' Christ - God wouldn't let that happen! Read preview of 'THE SECRET GOD REVEALED TO HIS PROPHETS' at Lulu.com

[loarevalo]

Originally Posted by dduckwessel

We can know by the 'times' when His return is close - no one will 'miss' Christ - God wouldn't let that happen! Read preview of 'THE SECRET GOD REVEALED TO HIS PROPHETS' at Lulu.com

I read that preview. Are you the author of it?
It seemed interesting. Yet, I didn't read anything I hadn't already thought myself as I read the Bible and had to understand it as one harmonious work.

Yes, people if they observe the "times" will know when the His coming is close - but they will not know when exactly He comes, what day or what year, no one knows, "not the angels of heaven, but My father only."

To the faithfull that await for Him, His coming will not be of great surprise, as it wasn't surprising for Noah when the rain would stop pouring. However, for everyone else that is skeptic, the Second Coming will be completely unexpected - and terrible, frightening, a day of "burning." To the righteous, it will be a day of glory and justice.

About the fact people will "miss" as to being surprised by Christ's coming Matthew 24: 36-44. Read the whole chapter 24 again if you wish as well.

Notice how clear this verse is (Matthew 24:14):
"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations and then shall the end come."
It should be obvious that by "the end" it is understood "the end of the world" as explained in John's Revelation. Therefore, the gospel must be preached unto all the world before His coming. We must also infer that the gospel is to be administered by those with authority, that is, by the true Church. Certainly, there will be people, as in the times of Noah, that will not believe, and thus they will caught by surprise by the judgements of God "as the lightning cometh out of the east."

[dduckwessel]

Originally Posted by loarevalo

I read that preview. Are you the author of it?
It seemed interesting. Yet, I didn't read anything I hadn't already thought myself as I read the Bible and had to understand it as one harmonious work.

So then - you are familiar with the law of witnesses for properly interpreting the Bible?

To the faithfull that await for Him, His coming will not be of great surprise, as it wasn't surprising for Noah when the rain would stop pouring. However, for everyone else that is skeptic, the Second Coming will be completely unexpected - and terrible, frightening, a day of "burning." To the righteous, it will be a day of glory and justice.

You seem to think that there is something wrong with being a skeptic - I on the otherhand appreciate people who don't blindly accept things - God will never condemn someone for honest questioning.

You wield the Bible like it's a weapon to crush people with! You seem to get some special pleasure in the anticipation of the day of burning?

The thing is that in Matt. 25 there were 'ten' virgins but only 'five' were 'wise' and 'ready' when Jesus returns. If they were 'wise' it's because they have 'wisdom' - can you tell me what that is exactly because no one will get to heaven without it?

About the fact people will "miss" as to being surprised by Christ's coming Matthew 24: 36-44. Read the whole chapter 24 again if you wish as well.

If you read the preview of my book - you would understand that you 'cannot' read these passages verbatim.

[loarevalo]

Originally Posted by dduckwessel

You seem to think that there is something wrong with being a skeptic - I on the otherhand appreciate people who don't blindly accept things - God will never condemn someone for honest questioning.

We all have to confront the issue of religion and God, and life after death, etc. God doesn't condemn but rather encourages us to seek light and truth. However, why would we seek truth if we never intend to believe it? We must believe, and receive the truth and accept it. Surely we must question everything - but we can't doubt everything. The quest for truth requires that we already believe, and from there receive more light - not as the world would have it: doubt everything, and from there seek proof or a sign.

In my own skepticism, I had doubted, gone to look for arguments supporting a belief in God, and thus gone on a circle to return where I was - to a belief in God, not perfect knowledge. However, that round through doubt and then belief strenghtened my faith - but this is the ugly way to develop. The right way, is to exercise faith - obey, and then notice the good results, and thus develop.

Originally Posted by dduckwessel

You wield the Bible like it's a weapon to crush people with! You seem to get some special pleasure in the anticipation of the day of burning?

I didn't mean to "bible bash" you. I don't get pleasure from the suffering of others (Only God knows, I may be of the ones that will "burn").

Originally Posted by dduckwessel

The thing is that in Matt. 25 there were 'ten' virgins but only 'five' were 'wise' and 'ready' when Jesus returns. If they were 'wise' it's because they have 'wisdom' - can you tell me what that is exactly because no one will get to heaven without it?

"Wisdom" here equates righteousness, obedience, faithfullness, loyalty, etc... Being good. As you said, passages cannot be interpreted verbatim alone. In this parable, oil represents a reservoir of faith and righteousness. Similar to parable of the unwise steward, given that we don't know when Jesus comes, we must be prepared at all times, that is, be diligent in our stewardship and endure to the end - because He will come when we least expect it.

[loarevalo]

As I understand, the gospel will be preached (the church will be re-established) before the end comes, the second coming. How do you interpret Matthew 24:14?
The bible speaks much about the times of restitution, restoration, gathering, etc...The gathering of Israel is both a physical gathering of the people to their lands, and a spiritual gathering, back to the gospel of the true God, to the church of God. It is evident this gathering already began, at least the physical gathering of the Jews back to Palestine.

Restoration, and gathering, begin shortly before the second coming, and will continue through the millenium. So, there must be a preparation of the Earth before the second coming:
"That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ..." - Ephesians 1:10
I understand the term "dispensation" to mean "dispensation of the gospel" or an administration of the gospel - this is the function of the church. As Israel is gathered spiritually we will see many converting, and Jerusalem established again as a righteous city, and the temple will be built there
(Zech. 8:20-23).

"...I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams; your young men shall see visions...And I will shew wonders...The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance...and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call." - Joel 2:28-32

Yet, there will also be those that will not repent, that will not believe in Christ, and will "make war with the saints" (Rev. 13:7). The two witness will be the last witnesses given to Israel and the world, and the "beast" (Rev. 13:5) will fight with them for three and a half years, and then Christ comes.

We live in the last days, yet while many things are yet to be filfulled, many things are already happening. It's plain understanding that Christ will soon come, and we must join to help in the gathering as we ourselves also go to "spiritual" Jerusalem.

[Boerseun]

A lot of good and fair points have been raised in this thread.

However, I'm of the opinion that this specific thread is slightly overstaying its welcome, seeing as it's getting a bit long and tedious to read as far as newcomers are concerned.

There are points raised in this thread that merit their own threads, as far as I'm concerned - so, please raise new and relevant threads so that we can kill this one.

Thanks,

Boerseun

[loarevalo]

Got that! Probably will start a new thread soon.

The current question of the thread is:

The Bible speaks about the Church in the first century, is this Church here today? Assuming that the Church fell during the middle ages, is the re-established Church here? How do we recognize it when it comes?