[Biochemist]

Continuing from another thread-

Several of you have offered that the Bible is rife with contradictions. I hear this a lot, and I am not quite sure what folks mean when they say it. There are indeed a number of elements of the Bible that are confusing, but I am only aware of a very small number of actual contradictions. Most are considered textual errors in transcription form the original manuscripts.

Would anyone care to offer a contradiction (or an apparent contradiction) that we can talk about? My intent is not to be defensive about this. I think this could be a pretty interesting discussion.

[adnaan]

The Bible is riddled with repetitions and contradictions, things that the Bible bangers would be quick to point out in anything that they want to criticize. For instance, Genesis 1 and 2 disagree about the order in which things are created, and how satisfied God is about the results of his labors. The flood story is really two interwoven stories that contradict each other on how many of each kind of animal are to be brought into the Ark--is it one pair each or seven pairs each of the "clean" ones? The Gospel of John disagrees with the other three Gospels on the activities of Jesus Christ (how long had he stayed in Jerusalem--a couple of days or a whole year?) and all four Gospels contradict each other on the details of Jesus Christ's last moments and resurrection. The Gospels of Matthew and Luke contradict each other on the genealogy of Jesus Christ' father; though both agree that Joseph was not his real father. Repetitions and contradictions are understandable for a hodgepodge collection of documents, but not for some carefully constructed treatise, reflecting a well-thought-out plan.

There is more than contradictions for why people dont accept the Bible. For instance, When you think of the idea of God, you would expect that everything around you is his creation, thus making a conclusion that God 'must' be greater than all creation. Then you see Christians say, "Jesus was God." A person would then think, God is better than his creations, he will not show himself using his own creation.
Another thing, Christians say that when you are born your filled with sin. Well think about that, a 'baby' is born with sin? People say that Jesus chose to die on the cross to forgive our sins, well if he were God, why would he need to do an act like that, just simply forgive us, right?

[adnaan]

JOHN 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Doesn't this also contradict the Bible, you say that Jesus was God, in this verse Jesus says his 'Father' (God) is greater than he is.?

[IrishEyes]

Ok, one question for me first, Bio-
When you are asking for contradictions, do you mean contradictions within the Bible, or contradictions between the Bible and other thoughts/sources/books? I know that people can generally come up with many contradictions between the Bible and other sources, but I really don't know of any contained within its pages.

[Biochemist]

Originally Posted by adnaan

The Bible is riddled with repetitions and contradictions, things that the Bible bangers would be quick to point out in anything that they want to criticize.....

I appreciate the response, Ad, but I really didn't intent to solicit a negative soliloquy against Christians.

My intent was to openly air issues that some believe are contradictions. You brought up several items that you regard as contradictions. You have actually brought up a couple of easy ones (like Genesis 1,2) , so I suspect that you are already aware of the common reading of those passages (Genesis 2 detailing Genesis 1) that are well within the bounds of normal useage of Hebrew poetry.

The New Testament lineages of Christ that you brought are another one that is easily explained (one lineage is Mary's, one is Joseph's). However, I got the impression (correct me if I am wrong) that you are not particularly interested in discussing the apparent contradictions.

Are you really interested in discussing the other items you surfaced in an agreeable manner?

[Biochemist]

Originally Posted by IrishEyes

Ok, one question for me first, Bio-
When you are asking for contradictions, do you mean contradictions within the Bible...

I was attempting to remain focused on internal Bblical conflicts. If we include conflicts with externals sources, we probably would have an unrestrained discussion.

[IrishEyes]

Originally Posted by adnaan

The Bible is riddled with repetitions and contradictions, things that the Bible bangers would be quick to point out in anything that they want to criticize. For instance, Genesis 1 and 2 disagree about the order in which things are created, and how satisfied God is about the results of his labors.

I believe, and I may be mistaken so please feel free to correct me, that Genesis 1 & 2 both deal with creation, and they do not contradict each other. Genesis 1 deals with the big picture, while chapter 2 goes into more detail, including the placement of Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden. I also think that God felt pretty good about things, as is noted in 1:31. The only hint that He had something else to do was in 2:18, when He decided to make Adam a mate.

The flood story is really two interwoven stories that contradict each other on how many of each kind of animal are to be brought into the Ark--is it one pair each or seven pairs each of the "clean" ones?

The animals that were to be preserved were taken in pairs. The animals that were to serve as food were taken in seven pairs. At least that is how I have understood it.

The Gospel of John disagrees with the other three Gospels on the activities of Jesus Christ (how long had he stayed in Jerusalem--a couple of days or a whole year?)

Could you please reference the verses in John that you say contradict the other Gospels? I know that, according to the Bible, Jesus was in Jerusalem on more than one occasion.

and all four Gospels contradict each other on the details of Jesus Christ's last moments and resurrection.

I don't understand this one. The Gospels are all pretty much the same on His death. It's much like asking four different people that witness an event what happened. The four versions will undoubtedly vary a bit, as each person will probably use different words to describe it, and each will probably notice and recall different details. I think I would be much more concerned if they were all exactly the same, instead of having the more personal accounts and recollections that are there.

The Gospels of Matthew and Luke contradict each other on the genealogy of Jesus Christ' father; though both agree that Joseph was not his real father.

One of the geneologies goes to David, showing that Jesus had the right to call himself the King of the Jews. The other deals with his earthly family, tracing his lineage back to Adam. One is through Mary, the other is through Joseph. One is biological, while the other is legal. They don't contradict each other at all, as far as I can tell.

Another thing, Christians say that when you are born your filled with sin. Well think about that, a 'baby' is born with sin?

I had a very hard time with this one, especially when looking at my newborn children. But as they grew older, I understood it a bit better. 'Human' nature, or sin-nature, is very apparent, even in the wee ones. "Natural" instinct is not to be 'good'. You must teach that to children. Do you have to teach them to lie, to take things that are not theirs (steal), to hit each other? No, you must teach them the opposite. You must teach them to be 'good', not teach them to be bad. Our natural instinct is most often to do what goes against God.

People say that Jesus chose to die on the cross to forgive our sins, well if he were God, why would he need to do an act like that, just simply forgive us, right?

God is perfect holiness. We are not. Forgiving us without an atonement would still leave us full of sin. In order for us to be in the presence of a Holy God, someone had to pay the price for our sins. The only one capable of doing that would be someone without sin. However, since we are all full of sin, God must pay the price for us. Through His shed blood, we are made Holy, and are able to enter into the presence of God.

[IrishEyes]

Originally Posted by Biochemist

I was attempting to remain focused on internal Bblical conflicts. If we include conflicts with externals sources, we probably would have an unrestrained discussion.

Sounds good to me.
Oh, and sorry, I was typing up the response to adnaan while you were posting probably. While I got the same impression that you did, I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt. I'm hoping that others will be kind enough to bring up internal contradictions as well. It's always fun, and sometimes challenging as well, for me to go digging to figure out "contradictions".

[Biochemist]

Originally Posted by adnaan

JOHN 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Doesn't this also contradict the Bible, you say that Jesus was God, in this verse Jesus says his 'Father' (God) is greater than he is.?

This is a pretty good example of the sort of things that many regard as "contradictory". I appreciate you bringing up an item like this.

There are a host of characteristics attributed to God that are generally assumed not to be applicble to Jesus when he walked the roads of Palestine. For example, Jesus was clearly not omnipresent, omniscient or time transcendent while human. When we discuss passages like John 14 (in concert with, for example, Col 2:9- "all the fulness of deity dwells in Him in bodily form") it looks like Jesus was temporarily less than God. In fact, In Hebrews 2:6-8, the author explicitly states that Christ was "lower than the angels" for a little while. (Oddly, this is a quote from Psalm 8:5, which does not look like it was talking about the Messiah, when the Psalmist wrote it. Nevertheless, this is one example of NT authors taking an interpretive view of the OT when discussing messianic issues.) It is generally accepted among conservative folks that Jesus was different then than He is now. Jesus now is more like the picture characterised in Revelation 1. There, He is pretty much all powerful and a little scary.

It appears that during His life, He gave up something while human. You might note that most descriptions of Christ's resurrection retain some reference to His glorfication, which presumably refers to a resumption of the God-like attributes that were temporarily abated. Ephesians 4: 4-10 does a good job of confusing the issues further by reiterating Godly unity ("One Lord, one faith, One baptism") and then immediately discusses the measure of Christ's gift. That is, in back-to-back verses from the Paul, he has no difficulty describing the unity of God, and then describing the uniqeness of Christ's role, as distinct from the Father.

This is a discussion primarily of the nature of God. We should expect this to be complicated. But complicated does not mean contradictory, any more than some of the apparent complexity of quantum physics is tough to reconcile.

[adnaan]

If it seems like im arguing, sorry, because I really am not trying to be mean or anything, but i have questions thats all.

Understanding a God i think shouldnt be that difficult.. I believe in God, but when i think of him i think of him greater than all creations. Its simple i like it.

We are not filled with sin until we commit sin. I dont think we are born with sin thats just confusing to be given sin for nothing. Our children can learn to lie, its not like when they are born they already know how to lie, and do bad deeds. They learn to lie and do bad things from exposures from friends, tv shows, movies, etc. I think children can be taught to be evil or good depending on our environment that affects them.

I am not sure if i understand, but Irisheyes are you saying that God sacrificed himself on the cross? I dont understand why such an event would be taken place, when simply like many other christians have told me, if you ask for forgiveness you will be forgiven. Why couldnt that be the rule at the beginning, why this whole event of sacrificing himself?

I see that God sheded blood, to forgive our sins, but blood is something he created, I am just saying, like i have said earlier I find God greater than all his creations, and to say that God sheded blood, well you can see the problem I see there.