[Freddy]

Hitler was a Christian, perhaps not like the average Catholic or Protestant. Hitler used Christian symbols in his Reich's Church, but Hitler was pictured as the new Christ. Any German Christian who preached against Hitler or his church doctrine was sent to a concentration camp where there was a special barracks for dissenting clergy.

[catholiboy]

Originally Posted by Tagred

Actually Hitler had stated many times in his speeches that he was a Christian, and that he believed in God. Whether that was just rhetoric or not is arguable.

Please point out where in the guinness book of records it shows number of dead caused by atheism and number of dead caused by religion.

How many godless philosophical countries are there?

Lets take a look at just a tiny bit of what religion has done in murdering people.

In india, 4 million people were killed precisely because of religious divide

Islam - need we say any more about the twin towers, or about the moors, or what about the Ottoman empire

What about christianity - holy roman empire, spanish & italian inquisitions, crusades, the killing of doctors who perform abortions, salem witch trials.

What about jews, when told to take over some cities, told to utterly destroy them and everyone inside including women and children early in their history (if the bible is to be believed)

Where does the moralisation come then? Stalin done that because he was godless? What about those who do that because they have a god?

The whole concept of good and evil has nothing to do with religion, we don't need any scriptures to define what is good or bad, we can be atheists and still be moral and ethical, religion is not a path to good, nor does (especially the bible) teach much difference in good or bad. Indeed, if you need a handbook in to practising genocide, how to commit rape, destroy cities, vilify those who dont believe the same as you, then the bible has it in spades.

It is because of peoples faith in religion that so many attrocities have happened and will continue. People do evil things because they believe in their religion and think that the scriptures tell them. So the argument that people are bad because they are atheist is utterly wrong. Im an atheist and evolutionist and proud of it, yet i have no compunction to murder, i help people.

The notion of good and bad is a consequence of the evolutionary process not religion.

OK, but I'd like to ask why this could possibly lead you to not believe in GOD. THERE ARE BILLIONS of other wayus of believing in a deity, not all of them involving hardline doctrine.
Rousseau says: "Nothing so masks the face of God as religion." But this doesn't have to mean that God doesn't exist.

Twin Towers? You ACTUALLY THINK that those attacks were really anything to do with religion? That's the excuse, but it was really just a political statement against the West.

[Tagred]

Why this leads me to say there is no god, is because there is a mountain of evidence to say there isnt one. We dont need a god, that is a creation of man, without man there is no god. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to say there is a god.

The attack on the twin towers was precisely because of religion. Indeed you can read many passages in the bible that says similar things to islam, to totally destroy anything that does not conform to the will of this so called god.

The bible tells christians to kill, to allow women to be raped, practice infanticide, and torture. Again, the notion that good or bad is down to a religious belief is a falacy.

Our notion of good and bad is from the evolutionary process that has nothing to do with a deity.

Interstingly, the top countries reported by the UN to have the best standard and quality of life are those that are secular or indeed atheistic in tone, such as Norway and Sweden. Again i think an earlier poster's view that "godless" societies are predisposed to evil is wrong.

You dont need god or religion to be good, god is unimportant as a guide for moral standards, since the bible very often teaches the opposite. This thing simply doesnt exist.

[Jakely Bront]

Originally Posted by NORMANBOND007

Is Science the answer to how we are here and does it tell us why we are here? or Could it be that Religion is the answer of how and why are we here?

I cannot believe how blasted away I am because of this thoroughly insightful and compelling question ...

How can any mere human be so on top of this issue ... ?

I am learning so much, in here.

The Jakester.

[catholiboy]

Originally Posted by Tagred

Why this leads me to say there is no god, is because there is a mountain of evidence to say there isnt one. We dont need a god, that is a creation of man, without man there is no god. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to say there is a god.

The attack on the twin towers was precisely because of religion. Indeed you can read many passages in the bible that says similar things to islam, to totally destroy anything that does not conform to the will of this so called god.

The bible tells christians to kill, to allow women to be raped, practice infanticide, and torture. Again, the notion that good or bad is down to a religious belief is a falacy.

Our notion of good and bad is from the evolutionary process that has nothing to do with a deity.

Interstingly, the top countries reported by the UN to have the best standard and quality of life are those that are secular or indeed atheistic in tone, such as Norway and Sweden. Again i think an earlier poster's view that "godless" societies are predisposed to evil is wrong.

You dont need god or religion to be good, god is unimportant as a guide for moral standards, since the bible very often teaches the opposite. This thing simply doesnt exist.

So, what is this evidence? Darwinism? do you really think that you disprove the existence of a god who purports to exist outside of reality, with samples of reality? You could only possibly disprove belief in the most hardline, doctrinal god in this way. And that contitutes next to no argument whatsoever.
I'll allow you the fact that yes, religion is not required to have a stable happy society. Then again, the wearing of clothes as an extreme example isn't either. don't judge religion by it's value to a group of people as a socio-political mechanism.

Once more, you are talking about very doctrinal religion, which as basically accepted amongst philosophers as having next to no value at all.

What I meant about the twin towers was that, given the execution of the attack, it really cannot be taken as anything more than a convoluted excuse for religion. Look at it (and at most of the events, as you quite rightly point out, in the Bible and the Qur'an), and what do you see? Two men flying planes into a building. Would that strike you as a political or a religious stand? It was executed, and for all we know conceived, for very ambiguous reasons and with motives either religious or political. Should we really take Islamicism (as it is called) as being a categorical imperative for all of Islam? Or view it as an anomaly in an otherwise perfectly clean religious denomination? In which case, it is nothing more than a religious cult CORRUPTED by archaic beliefs which stem from political resentment.

[catholiboy]

Could I just point out that the old testament (ie the NON christian bit) is what contains infanticide et al.
So ha. I laugh at you eternally.

[cwes99_03]

Can I just point out that Catholiboy knows little about the scriptures as is evidently true of Tagred as well.

Can I also point out that this thread was dead for over a year, before you resurrected it with a statement that had nothing to do with the thread.

Originally Posted by Tagred

Again, the notion that good or bad is down to a religious belief is a falacy.

Our notion of good and bad is from the evolutionary process that has nothing to do with a deity.

This was the point of the thread. If this is not what you intend to discuss, then find a thread that discusses what you want to discuss and post there, or start a new thread. But be forwarned, those of you who are relatively new to Hypography should learn the rules of the theology forum by heart before doing so.

The purpose of this thread was to discuss if science proposes a why we exist theory.

Originally Posted by NormaBond007

Is Science the answer to how we are here and does it tell us why we are here? or Could it be that Religion is the answer of how and why are we here?

This thread is not intended to discuss whether Hitler was a christian or whether christians believe it is okay to rape or kill people for their beliefs.

[catholiboy]

Originally Posted by cwes99_03

Can I just point out that Catholiboy knows little about the scriptures as is evidently true of Tagred as well.

Can I also point out that this thread was dead for over a year, before you resurrected it with a statement that had nothing to do with the thread.


This was the point of the thread. If this is not what you intend to discuss, then find a thread that discusses what you want to discuss and post there, or start a new thread. But be forwarned, those of you who are relatively new to Hypography should learn the rules of the theology forum by heart before doing so.

The purpose of this thread was to discuss if science proposes a why we exist theory.



This thread is not intended to discuss whether Hitler was a christian or whether christians believe it is okay to rape or kill people for their beliefs.

Yes, I get that - but can I point you to the fact that Tagred introduced both Hitler and christian belief into this. I just felt vaguely annoyed.
Re-read the statement - how in any way did that have nothing to do with :"SCIENCE OR RELIGION?" I was making the point that science and religion just can't work TOGETHER... a point which a billion people had made before me on this thread.

Sorry, the name catholiboy can be very misleading...i am not really a massive christian, probably the least christian christian in the world. so please, fill my lack of knowledge of scriptures, and tell me where in the new testament it tells people to do the aforementioned activities.


???

[cwes99_03]

I didn't say it did, and that is not what is being discussed.

As a non-christian christian, or at best the weakest thing a christian can be and still call himself a christian, then what side are you taking on the issue here. Are you a christian or a scientist? You say you can't represent a christian because your knowledge is seriously weak on the subject.

I disagree with the point that science and religion can't work together. I use both day in and day out and don't find them mutually exclusive. Thus it isn't a question of one or the other. In my mind they work hand in hand.

[catholiboy]

Well, given as the only time I ever mentioend scripture was to poijt this out, I fail to see what you're getting at.

I lied. I have read the Bible. I was combating the fact that you seemed to be insinuating the above.

The side I take on the issue? In your very narrow terms, I am a christian; I could never take the "scientist" side: what specifications apply?
Forget it. I'm not going to argue points to someone who doesnt even get what I'm saying, let alone combat it.