[Buffy]

Originally Posted by Skippy

"Passion Play slander"??????? How can telling the story which is written in the Gospels be considered slanderous? Jews admit that Jesus lived, you even say as much. They also will admit to putting Him to death for blasphemy or "rabble rousing" I think is how you put it. As long as the play shows Jews killing Jesus for those things, where's the slander?

Heh, heh. See what I mean? See how you down play all this into "its just the facts" when in fact that its easy to interpret the gospels, and in fact infer from the way that the Roman's ruled, that in fact the Jews *probably did not* "kill" Jesus. The Romans typically exercised complete control over all aspects of law and order in the territories they conquered, and while Jewish leaders definitely did have some influence, the Roman rulers would have been horrified at *any* rebellous movement by someone who claimed to be God. Its pretty clear from many interpreters--both theologians and historians--that it was Pontius Pilate who ordered Jesus crucified. Even Mel Gibson kept this issue muddled. So yes, the traditional Passion Play is in fact quite slanderous, and quite different today from what it was originally.

Originally Posted by Skippy

Hitler may have been in a Catholic church as a child, but he was no Christian...in fact his followers were "encouraged" to be anti-religious. It would be better to point to the Crusades and some of the wrongs those men did...

Its interesting that you seem to see the Holocaust and the Crusades as the only things that Jews have to "complain" about. Jews have been persecuted since the rise of Christianity: for over 1500 years. They have been segregated in ghettos, gone through intermittent Pogroms, and been subjected to all sorts of vile anti-semitism.

Originally Posted by Skippy

but then again, it has already been pointed out that man is imperfect, sinful - can't blame that on Jesus.

Sounds like you're saying that the Jews should just stop being prejudiced: well, maybe so, but can you blame them? Hatred of Jews has been intense and very long lived, and is now under attack again by many in this country who are saying things like "this is a Christian nation." In fact what's really interesting however, is that this sort of "victimology" that--while being a whipping boy of conservatives for ages ("blacks should stop seeing themselves as victims and stop asking for affirmative action: its bad for them") has become one of the primary positions of certain Christian leaders who are now calling prohibitions against organized prayer in school is "persecution against Christians". In any case, this sort of blaming the victim, which is only a shade or two short of saying "the Jews deserved it" should really be embarrasing to anyone who thinks about it much.

At any rate, thank you for providing some excellent examples of what this thread is all about: conflict between beliefs that do not seem to be reconcilable. Many who hold views that you have enunciated here use those views as an excuse to say that Jews will not enter the kingdom of heaven because they caused the death of Jesus. How can that belief be reconciled with the existence of religiously pious Jews? There are very few who have Southtown's belief that there is no way of knowing the "actual" truth and only God can judge. What so many believe in it seems gets tied up in theological knots like this one.

Cheers,
Buffy

[Southtown]

One would do well not to put their faith in institutions or organizations. Indeed, such congregations are not prerequisite for one to commune with an omniscient being. The seperate religions of the "One True God" and any successive denominations only manage to hang "dirty laundry" of conflict outside for the world to see. Oddly, and one would suspect providently, this allows any passing observer to peer into the situation free of bias since no one church owns the bible or the interpretations thereof. Kind of like stretching a sheet, requiring many people on opposing sides, pulls all wrinkles taught.

[geokker]

Religions are irreconcilable. Faith may not be however, as people go apostastic by the day (and with increasing frequency imo). It's the institutions that scare me. Here's an example of how dumb religious institutionalization can be:

I believe in a God called Zaphod. I believe I am one of his chosen people. I believe people worshipping false prophets are evil, heretical and will and should be punished. My religion requires me to carry a 10" hunting knife at all times. I've written down Zaphods word and am a minister of Zaphodism.

Now, if I am stopped in the street and arrested, I am a victim of religious intolerance. If someone in the street preaches that Jews are the chosen people, I'll be offended - not only does their God not exist, but it is proof that Jews are the enemy of my God. If I preach that all those who oppose the will of Zaphod will be punished, I'm offensive.

How bone-headed is this? Proof? Zaphond exists - End Of.

[Dundasbro]

Wahoo hunting knife!!! Where do i sign up???

[Southtown]

Originally Posted by Southtown

In short, yes. It is possible for both to be right... in the sight of God. The essence of salvation by faith is that you don't have to be perfect. God is interested in sincerity. God is interested in the heart. And He is the only one who can know the reasons in a person's heart, anyway. (Proverbs 24:12) This is another reason why I'm conviced in the Gospel, because that sounds like a fair deal to me.

One can only imagine where God will draw the line. I try not to think like that, and I think people who do are setting themselves up to be judged. (Romans 2:1) Some people can go to church, give charity, and still not have a kind heart or pure motives. While non-church-goers, or even non-Christians, can be going about life with a heart that pleases God somehow. Who knows? Nobody. Only God. (Matthew 7:21)

. . .

...much like an innocent passion for science would be more commendable than an arrogant proficiency of.

[Buffy]

Originally Posted by Southtown

...much like an innocent passion for science would be more commendable than an arrogant proficiency of.

Amen!

Gettin' off topic tho....

Cheers,
Buffy

[Pyrotex]

Originally Posted by geokker

They aren't. My God is the true God. You are a blasphemer.

Originally Posted by Southtown

Have you ever heard of a "strawman" argument, geokker?
I have a couple scriptures as to why Christians should not make statements like the one above, even though "gecko" was just being sarcastic....

No. Goekker wasn't being sarcastic. Since his God is the only and true, then you have to be a blasphemer.
It has been this way since the dawn of Christianity (at least). The "church fathers" of the 2nd 3rd and 4th centuries, such as Origen, Celsus, Irenaeus, Marcion, Tertullian, Clement, Martyr, Eusebius, and others -- and St. Paul, of course -- spoke exactly the same way. If you don't believe what I believe then you are a blasphemer and a heretic. They dealt with theological differences by calling each other names.

Many of the "church fathers" eventually were branded as heretics.

Theological differences between the Catholics and newly formed Protestants of the 16th century settled their differences with massive bloody warfare lasting for 80 years, and the Inquisition.

Given this nobel tradition, I feel it is our spiritual duty to carry it on. So, carry on, Goekker!! I believe another broadside to his midships is in order!!

[Pyrotex]

Originally Posted by Buffy

Gettin' off topic tho....
Cheers,
Buffy

Buffy,
I hate it when I'm the last poster in a thread and then [poof] POOF! [/poof] all the participants evaporate. Tends to make me think I "ruined" the argument.
Pyro

[Buffy]

Originally Posted by Pyrotex

I hate it when I'm the last poster in a thread and then [poof] POOF! [/poof] all the participants evaporate. Tends to make me think I "ruined" the argument.

Could be. Could also be that everyone just finally figured out that you're right!

The Last Word: Mayonnaise,
Buffy

[Pyrotex]

Originally Posted by Buffy

...The Last Word: Mayonnaise...

Mayonnaise a lotta posts in this thread!