[majordinkydau]

If we are only physical beings and do not have a spirit within us than we can live our lives totally disregarding spiritual laws. If I disregard the law of gravity I'm in for some sudden stops as I am pulled earthwards by its force. I've disregarded the spiritual laws for most of my life because I could not see or measure them but I knew the law "you reap what you sow" Here is an experiment you might want to try. It will prove there is a spirtual realm out there that you may have been ignoring to your great disadvantage.
Relationships do not run on logic. Do the math, figure how to please your mate and then shake your head as the relationship falls apart, its all their fault. Your kids hate you because your angry divorce hurt them as badly as a molestation. People are really impressed when you speak of great scientific ideas but you just can't seem to make life work. Your own life stinks because this god people told you about while you grew up is indifferent or inept. You know this because god abandoned you to suffer other peoples abuse as a child. Therefore its only right others should suffer your abuse as an adult. All the masterfull therorys cannot add an ounce of meaning to your empty heart while you life crumbles around you, but people are still impressed when you speak. Sort of like Essau selling his birth right for a bowl of stew.

A man's own folly distroys his life yet his heart rages against the Lord. Prov 19:3

[infamous]

Originally Posted by majordinkydau

If we are only physical beings and do not have a spirit within us than we can live our lives totally disregarding spiritual laws. If I disregard the law of gravity I'm in for some sudden stops as I am pulled earthwards by its force. I've disregarded the spiritual laws for most of my life because I could not see or measure them but I knew the law "you reap what you sow" Here is an experiment you might want to try. It will prove there is a spirtual realm out there that you may have been ignoring to your great disadvantage.
Relationships do not run on logic. Do the math, figure how to please your mate and then shake your head as the relationship falls apart, its all their fault. Your kids hate you because your angry divorce hurt them as badly as a molestation. People are really impressed when you speak of great scientific ideas but you just can't seem to make life work. Your own life stinks because this god people told you about while you grew up is indifferent or inept. You know this because god abandoned you to suffer other peoples abuse as a child. Therefore its only right others should suffer your abuse as an adult. All the masterfull therorys cannot add an ounce of meaning to your empty heart while you life crumbles around you, but people are still impressed when you speak. Sort of like Essau selling his birth right for a bowl of stew.

A man's own folly distroys his life yet his heart rages against the Lord. Prov 19:3

I agree with your assessment because we share a faith in a soveriegn God. However, we will have no luck trying to prove this faith to the faithless. Please do not misinterpret this as a surrender to secular thinking. I am perfectly willing to confess my faith if someone asks me how I feel. But to argue the point with an unbeliever is not profitable, and can not be supported by the scientific method.

[C1ay]

This religious discussion is being moved to the religion forum...

[Boerseun]

...so where's the 'speriment?

[rockytriton]

well, you can't really measure any of these "spritual laws" so I don't think you could do any type of experiment on it. I can think of plenty of examples of people who are doing quite well off the suffering of others though, so this would help to prove that there is no spirit in us, though I don't personally believe that.

[alxian]

what if you rephrase the question slightly to

are we flesh or consciousness?

who is the human being, who has the rights?

the body or the consciouness that controls it

they are mutually exclusive things.

disassociate the two by upload a persons mind into a computer, to avoid duplication you'd have to wipe the brain of the host, however that in itself requires killing the residual consciousness in the host. instantly that databank where the human consciouness resides has human right, the host body technically has none. you can't destroy it but neither can it serve society.

some people plead that they are in their minds not what their bodies project. if that multiple personality disorders, men who think they are women, women who think they are men.

sometimes the mind does not mesh with the body.

it can be argued that the consciousness grows as part of a community regardless of the host bodies characteristics. if you are raised in a white society you are "white washed", if you are raised in an african village you've "gone native", if a male is raised with only female influences chances are he'll be effeminate. thus the host has little sway on the development of the consciouness. the human being with the cili rights is the consciousness not the host body. for now we cannot disassociate them, but the day will come soon when we can.

what if a person wanted to leave their body for another? perfect sex changes, someone wishing to change race, to better be who they think they are.

can we allow that person to clone a body and move into it and fry their old one? as long as they have the capital sure why not? we already shirk the commandments by modifying ourselves aesthetically why not mod the whole thing? we could put the old body on ice to await a consciousness of less discriminating tastes, or less capital thus unable to afford a full body replacement therapy. people who need donor organs and limbs but can't afford a clone can buy a cryogenically preserved cadaver, one that never "died", but without a consciouness isn't really alive, a brain dead vegetable, and probably is otherwise perfectly healthy. such cadaver banks could supply the worlds need for donor parts and entire donor bodies.

because i think, as much as society values the developed and well adjusted mind/consciousness its fundamental (biblically) to cherish and respect the vessel god created for us. even if the individual mistreats it and then wishes to leave it altogether, the body should be at least preserved for another consciouness.


what if that prospective tenant consciouness is an AI. An emulation of the human brain able to operate on the nervous network of a human body? if the day dawned where man could upload an AI into the brain of such a disgarded cadaver, bringing it once more to life, would this ghola creature be human? would it have rights? would the consciousness that moved into a perfect disease free immortal cloned body have the same rights as a man of woman born? or the AI in an android body that was intelligent enough to fool another man into believing he was human (grading A on the touring test), lastly the human consciousness emulated or migrated to an android body, shoudl they all have rights?

what would be interesting is if some of the junk dna we store in our long chains has anything to do with memory. although intellectually a clone will never be the same person living again the fact that the memory can be accessed would at least in part allow a human to live again... what if that clone body hosting some rich jerk had its original host consciouness reassert itself? in such a case who owns the body?

[majordinkydau]

Why change this thread to theology? Afraid someone might think outside of the evolutionary envelope? I don't think my title was misleading and no one would read it if they found discussions about spiritual things a wasted effort.
I'm asking people to look at that part of their natures that is beyond their control. A blackberry bush that has taken over their lives. No amount of denile makes the mess go away but since we can't see a spiritual realm, we convince ourselves it does not exist, but its reality is every bit as certin as gravity. If you jump from the 10th floor office window you go splat unless you use another law, such as arodynamics to overcome that law. Before science had any explanitations for these laws they were still observable and still held power over mankind.
Why do I find my life stuck in Romans 7 "the good I want to do I don't do, the evil I hate that I do, oh wretched man that I am."
I watched a Stephen King movie where this man kept seeing dead people walking around. His response was to shut his eyes and repeat excitedly "not there not there" until the vision went away. (Rose Red)
I went to AA back in the 70's by court order, I'm not an alky, alkies wake up in strange cities and wonder how they got there. They said "If alchahol causes problems in your life you have a drinking problem"
No problem is too big that it cannot be ignored.
So maybe man is a spiritual being and if he ignores the spiritual rules, he continues to go splat when he attempts to fly.
Imagine
When as a child my friends all fled
I learned to live witin my head
in pleasant dells of treasure

The world could not assail me there
nor fix me with its damning glare
my refuge became my pleasure

Many years I traveled science
reality does not convince
my heart to cease its dreaming

Until I find that paradise
daydreams remain my one device
that keeps my soul from screaming
Major Dinky Dau

[UncleAl]

If we are only physical beings and do not have a spirit within us than we can live our lives totally disregarding spiritual laws.

Bingo! Stop while you are ahead. Life would be a pragmatic Golden Rule tempered by hegemony of the strong over the weak. We would answer to personal responsibility and expectations for the future rather than kneel before arbitrary bloody whims and post mortem threats of particularly inferior deities. We woud be motivated to be strong and successful not pious and begging.

A man's own folly distroys his life yet his heart rages against the Lord. Prov 19:3

Do not impede the able; do not intefere with the unable. It is an economic recipe for sustained success in all things. Rationally embrace an empirical universe. We honor this idea by doing the exact opposite, and invariably obtain "unexpected" consequences of our compassionate idiot acts - perpetual disaster on ever-escalating scales.

Nature does not care; we do. Strive for a workable accommodation with unalterable facts. Praying on a lightbulb is an act of ineducable stupidity (it will come on someday!) - that is why it has a switch.

[majordinkydau]

I'm not sure what you just said but as far as economics go man does nothing on a large scale without some gain. We did not evolve to a higher state when we ended slavery in the USA it had become too costly after the industrial revolution. A slave required a large investment and daily care for health and physical wellbeing. An employee on the other hand could be paid less than required for them to live on and if they died or could no longer work the company just replaces them. A wonderful shrine on mankinds road to enlightment. I was in a riot in Berkley back in 69 and went from singing peace songs to throwing rocks in a 3 hour period. "I love the smell of tear gas in the morning, it smell like anarchy"
Pretend we don't have a lower nature and write flowing words about our achievments but humanity is a hate crime.

[dduckwessel]

Originally Posted by majordinkydau

If we are only physical beings and do not have a spirit within us than we can live our lives totally disregarding spiritual laws. If I disregard the law of gravity I'm in for some sudden stops as I am pulled earthwards by its force. I've disregarded the spiritual laws for most of my life because I could not see or measure them but I knew the law "you reap what you sow" Here is an experiment you might want to try. It will prove there is a spirtual realm out there that you may have been ignoring to your great disadvantage.
Relationships do not run on logic. Do the math, figure how to please your mate and then shake your head as the relationship falls apart, its all their fault. Your kids hate you because your angry divorce hurt them as badly as a molestation. People are really impressed when you speak of great scientific ideas but you just can't seem to make life work. Your own life stinks because this god people told you about while you grew up is indifferent or inept. You know this because god abandoned you to suffer other peoples abuse as a child. Therefore its only right others should suffer your abuse as an adult. All the masterfull therorys cannot add an ounce of meaning to your empty heart while you life crumbles around you, but people are still impressed when you speak. Sort of like Essau selling his birth right for a bowl of stew.

A man's own folly distroys his life yet his heart rages against the Lord. Prov 19:3

1 Thess. 5:23; "...and I pray God your whole spirit (immortal) and soul (mortal) and body (mortal) be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (paraentheses mine)