[insight]

Originally Posted by infamous

No one is forcing you to believe, it is your right to believe whatever you choose to believe.

yeah, i agree that everyone should have a religion. BTW, there are some religion without God.

[dduckwessel]

Originally Posted by Boerseun

...and then, of course, there's the school of thought that holds the Trinity to be a useful device to fuse ancient beliefs together.

'God' being, of course, the God of Abraham, that was a well-known deity in the Middle East for plenty years.

'Jesus' being the representative of some pagan deity that held sway over a fair part of the populace, and

The 'Holy Ghost' being some other belief, comfortably welded to the others.

Nett result - peace amongst the beliefs.

Now you'd notice I'm not very detailed, but I read about this a while ago. Gotta find it, and I'll post some links 'n stuff. Makes for very interesting reading!

According to the Bible, human beings are comprised of 'three' parts; spirit (immortal, from God), soul, and body (mortal, from earth) - however, we don't say there are three people but only one person.

The God of the Bible is likewise, He is 'three' (Father, Son, Holy Ghost) in 'one' meaning that He is 'one' God with three parts, as human beings are.

The Father is the 'spirit' essence that 'lives in heaven' which no man has seen or can see. However, how could He save people if they couldn't even look at Him? So then He gave Himself a 'physical body' called 'the Son' which is His 'human' essence, and the Holy Ghost is 'the part of Himself' that He disperses to human beings.

[dduckwessel]

Originally Posted by Turtle

___God of Abraham - "Let Us create Man in Our image".
___Man so created - "Show yourselves so we know what we look like already!"

He did show Himself to human beings, and He was called 'Jesus the Christ'.

[dduckwessel]

Originally Posted by Buffy

Only for "science-haters!" Science discovers!!!!

Now, back on topic...How do you guys explain how the Holy Trinity is *not* polytheism?

Schismatically,
Buffy

Even though many Christians are confused about this, the Bible does not teach that God is three 'person's', as in three distinct individuals, which would be polytheism.

Rather the Bible teaches there is only 'one' God who has 'three' forms, which is really monotheism.

If you think it strange that one person can have three forms, consider that human beings also have three parts. According to the Bible we are 'spirit, soul, and body' but we are only 'one' person.

[dduckwessel]

Originally Posted by Buffy

Some interesting assumptions about God flow out of this of course:[list][*]God is a final authority who judges all.

Though he is the final authority, he would never be partial or unfair in his judgments.

[*]Gods are potentially wrathful, so if there was more than one, they wouldn't get along.
[*]You need to pay attention to God, she expects you to follow orders.

He is not dictatorial but prefers that we use our brains to reason.

[*]Faithfulness can only have a solitary target: You must choose between your parents, spouse, and children, in fact you can only be faithful to God, so forget about them (c.f. Abraham, Lot)

In a healthy relationship we will see God in our family.

It actually seems to me that polytheism can be a more satisfying view of the world (as if we can choose! You'll burn in hell if you're wrong of course!), especially when you talk about things like bullet 4 above.

Polytheism would be difficult because we naturally chose favourites, alternately loving each god, whereas if there's only one, there is no conflict. God never condemns anyone for honest questioning - it is a matter of 'do you really care enough to know him to ask him to explain himself to you'.

[Buffy]

Originally Posted by dduckwessel

Even though many Christians are confused about this, the Bible does not teach that God is three 'person's', as in three distinct individuals, which would be polytheism.

Rather the Bible teaches there is only 'one' God who has 'three' forms, which is really monotheism.

Well, that's what the "experts" say to try to cover up the inconsistency ("the Bible inconsistent? Its the word-o-God! It just *can't* be inconsistent!), but go ahead and read it and you'll see references to Jesus as both "his Son", and "God" rather than a "prophet" (that's why he can perform miracles!). Its very easy to interpret this as polytheism sneaking out, when you have to remember that at the time, Judaism was the only monotheistic religion in the West! Having reasuring references to something more familiar like God of the Universe and God on Earth was at the time a good way to bring the pagans into the fold. Only later after the scriptures were fixed was there a need to start draping it with stuff like Catholocism's description of "the Trinity", to cover up the inconsistency. But its there!

Cheers,
Buffy

[Buffy]

Originally Posted by dduckwessel

Though he is the final authority, he would never be partial or unfair in his judgments.

Why's She wrathful then? She says so herself! (Ex 20-32, multiple)

Originally Posted by dduckwessel

He is not dictatorial but prefers that we use our brains to reason.

What's all those Commandments for then? Sure, I guess we get a choice as to whether to follow them, but She punishes us if we don't! What do you call that?

Originally Posted by dduckwessel

In a healthy relationship we will see God in our family.

This sure sounds like a stretch to me, and its why I like to refer to Abraham: the only way he could prove to God that God was number one was to offer to kill his own son. God was above his son. My kid has said that's the scariest story in the Bible and has asked me what I would do. Guess what *my* answer was!

Originally Posted by dduckwessel

Polytheism would be difficult because we naturally chose favourites, alternately loving each god, whereas if there's only one, there is no conflict. God never condemns anyone for honest questioning - it is a matter of 'do you really care enough to know him to ask him to explain himself to you'.

So what's wrong with having favorites? I always kinda liked Ringo, but it took all four of them to have The Beatles. Oh wait, She's wrathful: like another one more than Her and She gets jealous (Ex 20:5)!

Wait, all powerful benevolent Gods are jealous? Are subject to all sorts of human failings? Is there something wrong with this picture? If "God never condemns anyone for honest questioning," then isn't it okay to stick with a different favorite? Why is this a problem? Really, isn't "insisting that you're the only one" one of those traits we point to in humans that we say is *bad*? Do you really seek out those people as friends?

Note that, as just posted over in another thread, the Hindu notion of multiple gods is tied back to the universe being the totality of all of them (something which unfortunately does not translate well into English and Western theologies). There's a notion of "one God" as this thread started as, but it is the summation of all of them! This is a radically different notion than a single entity as we are familiar with in Judeo-Christian-Muslim theology.

I'm still not perceiving a downside to having multiple gods yet...

Cheers,
Buffy

[dduckwessel]

Originally Posted by Buffy

Well, that's what the "experts" say to try to cover up the inconsistency ("the Bible inconsistent? Its the word-o-God! It just *can't* be inconsistent!), but go ahead and read it and you'll see references to Jesus as both "his Son", and "God" rather than a "prophet" (that's why he can perform miracles!). Its very easy to interpret this as polytheism sneaking out, when you have to remember that at the time, Judaism was the only monotheistic religion in the West! Having reasuring references to something more familiar like God of the Universe and God on Earth was at the time a good way to bring the pagans into the fold. Only later after the scriptures were fixed was there a need to start draping it with stuff like Catholocism's description of "the Trinity", to cover up the inconsistency. But its there!

Cheers,
Buffy

'Religion' certainly has produced great inconsistency, but that is because human beings have interpreted the book 'according to their own bias rather than letting it explain itself.

It is ironic that Judaism and Christianity are so different, having their roots in the same information. However, whereas Jews believe 'God is one', Christian teaching believes 'one God, three forms'. If Jews stopped and thought when reading Genesis tho they would see that God is referred to 'us' and 'our' as in 'more than one'.

[dduckwessel]

Originally Posted by Buffy

Why's She wrathful then? She says so herself! (Ex 20-32, multiple)What's all those Commandments for then? Sure, I guess we get a choice as to whether to follow them, but She punishes us if we don't! What do you call that? This sure sounds like a stretch to me, and its why I like to refer to Abraham: the only way he could prove to God that God was number one was to offer to kill his own son. God was above his son. My kid has said that's the scariest story in the Bible and has asked me what I would do. Guess what *my* answer was! So what's wrong with having favorites? I always kinda liked Ringo, but it took all four of them to have The Beatles. Oh wait, She's wrathful: like another one more than Her and She gets jealous (Ex 20:5)!

I don't much like the story either, in actuality though I believe 'God stopped Abraham from making a stupid mistake'. Religion often becomes a nothing less than 'buying God', "God, I will do this for you if you do this for me." I think Abraham fell into the same trap altho to be honest I haven't done enough of a study to say absolutely. I do know one thing, reading the Bible verbatim will produce error.

Wait, all powerful benevolent Gods are jealous? Are subject to all sorts of human failings? Is there something wrong with this picture? If "God never condemns anyone for honest questioning," then isn't it okay to stick with a different favorite? Why is this a problem? Really, isn't "insisting that you're the only one" one of those traits we point to in humans that we say is *bad*? Do you really seek out those people as friends?

'Honest' questioning is always okay but why ask me, ask Him, but then Buffy, do you really want to know? God has a 'personality' which was personified in Jesus Christ.

I'm still not perceiving a downside to having multiple gods yet...

.

If there are 'gods' then which one takes responsibility for what?

[Buffy]

Originally Posted by dduckwessel

'Honest' questioning is always okay but why ask me, ask Him, but then Buffy, do you really want to know? God has a 'personality' which was personified in Jesus Christ.

I ask Santa, He's a *lot* easier to track down at the mall...

Originally Posted by dduckwessel

If there are 'gods' then which one takes responsibility for what?

What? They can't divide the labor up themselves? Roman and Greek and Norse and Hindu Gods all seem to do this pretty well, what's the problem? If its mysterious, well heck, we all *know* she moves in mysterious ways! I'm jiggy wid' dat.

Cheers,
Buffy