Creationism--Proof ?

[damocles]

Definition of phenomenon.

http://www.answers.com/topic/phenomenon

phenomenon

Dictionary
phe·nom·e·non (fĭ-nŏm'ə-nŏn', -nən)
n., pl. -na (-nə).
An occurrence, circumstance, or fact that is perceptible by the senses.
pl. -nons.
An unusual, significant, or unaccountable fact or occurrence; a marvel.
A remarkable or outstanding person; a paragon. See synonyms at wonder.
Philosophy. In the philosophy of Kant, an object as it is perceived by the senses, as opposed to a noumenon.
Physics. An observable event.
[Late Latin phaenomenon, from Greek phainomenon, from neuter present participle of phainesthai, to appear.]

USAGE NOTE Phenomenon is the only singular form of this noun; phenomena is the usual plural. Phenomenons may also be used as the plural in nonscientific writing when the meaning is “extraordinary things, occurrences, or persons”: They were phenomenons in the history of music.

Thesaurus
phenomenon

noun

Something having real, demonstrable existence: actuality, event, fact, reality. See real/imaginary.
One that evokes great surprise and admiration: astonishment, marvel, miracle, prodigy, sensation, stunner, wonder, wonderment. Idioms: one for the books, the eighth wonder of the world. See good/bad.

Encyclopedia
phenomenon, an observable fact or event; in philosophy the definitions and uses of the term have varied. In the philosophy of Aristotle phenomena were the objects of the senses (e.g., sights and sounds), as opposed to the real objects understood by the mind. Later, phenomena were considered the observed facts and were contrasted with the theories used to explain them. Modern philosophers have used “phenomenon” to designate what is apprehended before judgment is applied. For Immanuel Kant a phenomenon was the object of experience and was the opposite of a noumenon, the thing-in-itself, to which Kant's categories did not apply.

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Medical
phe·nom·e·non (fĭ-nŏm'ə-nŏn', -nən)
n., pl. -na (-nə).
An occurrence, a circumstance, or a fact that is perceptible by the senses, especially one in relation to a disease.
pl. -nons. An unusual, significant, or unaccountable fact or occurrence; a marvel.



WordNet
Note: click on a word meaning below to see its connections and related words.
The noun phenomenon has 2 meanings:

Meaning #1: any state or process known through the senses rather than by intuition or reasoning

Meaning #2: a remarkable development


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Wikipedia
phenomenon
A phenomenon (plural: phenomena) is an observable event, especially something special (literally something that can be seen from the Greek word phainomenon = observable).

Kant's use of phenomenon
Phenomenon has a specialized meaning in the philosophy of Immanuel Kant who contrasted the term 'Phenomenon' with 'Noumenon'. Phenomena constitute the world as we experience it, as opposed to the world as it exists independently of our experiences (thing-in-themselves, 'das ding an sich'). Humans cannot, according to Kant, know things-in-themselves, only things as we experience them. Thus philosophy should concern itself with understanding the process of experience itself.

The concept of 'Phenomena' led to a tradition of philosophy known as Phenomenology. Leading figures in this tradition include Hegel, Husserl, Heidegger, Merleau-Ponty and Derrida.

Kant's account of phenomena has also been understood as influential in the development of psychodynamic models of Psychology, and of theories concerning the ways in which the brain, mind and external world interact.

Phenomenon in the general sense
In general, apart from its specialized use as a term in philosophy, phenomenon stands for any observable event. Phenomena make up the raw data of science. Phenomena are often exploited by technology.

It is possible to list the phenomena which are relevant to almost any field of endeavor, for example, in the case of optics and light one can list observable phenomena under the topic optical phenomenon.

The possibilities are many, for example:

Anomalous phenomenon (parapsychology)
Biological phenomenon (biology)
Chemical phenomenon (chemistry)
Electrical phenomenon (electricity)
Geological phenomenon (geology)
Hydrological phenomenon (hydrology)
Meteorological phenomenon (weather)
Optical phenomenon (optics)
Physical phenomenon (physics)
Statistical phenomena (statistics)
Thermal phenomenon (thermodynamics)
Some observable events are commonplace, some require delicate manipulation of expensive and sensitive equipment. Some are significant experiments which led to groundbreaking discoveries.

There is a class of phenomena which lie outside generally accepted knowledge which knowledgeable scientists tend to discount. They are collected and discussed under the topic anomalous phenomenon.


See also
Scientific phenomena named after people

Quotes
"No phenomenon is a phenomenon until it is an observed phenomenon" Niels Bohr.
"Scientific theory is a contrived foothold in the chaos of living phenomena." - Wilhelm Reich
"To study the phenomenon of disease without books is to sail an uncharted sea, while to study books without patients is not to go to sea at all." Sir William Osler

Disambiguation
Phenomenon is also the name of an album by the rock band, UFO.
Phenomenon is also the name of a 1996 film starring John Travolta and Forest Whitaker.
Phenomenon is also the name of a 1997 album by rapper LL Cool J.

This entry is from Wikipedia, the leading user-contributed encyclopedia. It may not have been reviewed by professional editors (see full disclaimer)

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...ne:explanation

Definitions of explanation on the Web:

a statement that makes something comprehensible by describing the relevant structure or operation or circumstances etc.; "the explanation was very simple"; "I expected a brief account"
thought that makes something comprehensible
the act of explaining; making something plain or intelligible; "I heard his explanation of the accident"
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

An explanation is a statement which points to causes, context and consequences of some object (or process, state of affairs etc.), together with rules or laws which link these to the object. Some of these elements of the explanation may be implicit.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explanation

a formal method of explanation based on the testing of hypotheses derived from general laws.
http://www.china.org.cn/english/feat...logy/98851.htm

an account characteristically telling us why something exists or happens, or must exist or happen. The covering law model of explanation proposed by Hempel has been widely influential, but has many critics. There are controversies over the nature of functional or teleological explanation, over the legitimacy of inferring to the best explanation, and over Dilthey's contrast between scientific explanation and historical understanding.
www.filosofia.net/materiales/rec/glosaen.htm

Type: object and logical place. A book is carried in a backpack (usually)...just as a document is carried in a portfolio. The other words: clothes are kept in a dresser like books are kept in a backpack, but they are not being toted around. Relics are kept in a museum (usually) but the museum is not the means of transporting the relics like a backpack transports the books.
forms.donnayoung.org/help/vocabulary.htm

explains the color coding and roll ups used in the other sheets and explains what is in each sheet (provides an orientation and background information)
http://www.stanford.edu/services/ora...es/000426.html

Explanations of human actions typically make reference to the agent's reasons or motive for some action. For example, Chris went to the bookstore to buy a text book. Causes are usually cited only for human actions that are not intentional, such as falling. A person's falling might be causally explained by the slipperiness of the road surface, the person having been pushed, or drugged, or having a heart attack. ...
www.unmc.edu/ethics/words.html

The skill of communication in which an interpretation of information is given and stated to others.
www.dpi.state.wi.us/standards/sciglos.html

Expert system feature that reveals the motivation, justification, or rationalization of its conclusions by presenting goals, facts, and heuristic rules that affected or determined the choice of conclusions.
amsglossary.allenpress.com/glossary/browse

[L:144] Kant distinguishes two types of explanation, each associated with a different type of definition. Nominal definitions consists of "mere explanations of the name...merely serve to distinguish it from other objects." By contrast, "material explanations or real definitions...are those which are sufficient for a cognition of the object as to its inner determinations by setting forth the possibility of the object out of inner characteristics."
www.texttribe.com/text/kant_glossary.htm

Gulla (1993:56) refers to an explanation as a description that in practice enables one to understand certain phenomena, being expressed in terms of text, sounds, film, etc. The purpose of an explanation is to reduce the difficulties of understanding a phenomenon, ie, to ease perspective taking.
http://www.idi.ntnu.no/grupper/su/pu...land/ch071.htm

The statutory Government requirement to explain fully the derivation of all policies and proposals (often referred to as the reasoned justification).
plans.torbay.gov.uk/written/cpt17a.htm

to solicit or obtain a free ride or series or rides in a vehicle.
http://www.teach-nology.com/workshee...ab/six/quiz/5/

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...ne:information

Definitions of information on the Web:

a message received and understood
data: a collection of facts from which conclusions may be drawn; "statistical data"
knowledge acquired through study or experience or instruction
(communication theory) a numerical measure of the uncertainty of an outcome; "the signal contained thousands of bits of information"
formal accusation of a crime
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Information is a term with many meanings depending on context, but is as a rule closely related to such concepts as meaning, knowledge, instruction, communication, representation, and mental stimulus.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information

College of William and Mary Chancellor Professor of Physics Hans Christian von Baeyer authored a book entitled Information: The New Language of Science. In chapter one (as exemplified in the following excerpt from page ten), the author introduces the book's subject: information.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_(book)

In statistics and information theory, the Fisher information (denoted ) is the variance of the score.Fisher information is thought of as the amount of information that an observable random variable carries about an unobservable parameter upon which the probability distribution of depends.Since the expectation of the score is zero, the variance is also the second moment of the score and so the Fisher information can be written
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_(statistics)

Information is the result of processing, manipulating and organizing data in a way that adds to the knowledge of the person receiving it.
www.orafaq.com/glossary/faqglosi.htm

Data that has been processed to add or create meaning and hopefully knowledge for the person who receives it. Information is the output of information systems.
dssresources.com/glossary/dssglossary1999.html

Accusatory document, filed by the prosecutor, detailing the charges against the defendant. An alternative to an indictment, it serves to bring a defendant to trial.
courts.delaware.gov/How%20To/court%20proceedings/

is data the internal auditor obtains during an audit to provide a sound basis for audit findings and recommendations. Information should be sufficient, competent, relevant, and useful. (420.01.2)
www.indiana.edu/~iuaudit/glossary.html

That which is extracted from a compilation of data in response to a specific need.
www.utmb.edu/is/security/glossary.htm

A measure of how surprising something is.
xray.bmc.uu.se/~kenth/bioinfo/glossary.html

Organized data which is understood to have significance and meaning.
www.christlinks.com/glossary2.html

"Data, text, images, sounds, codes, computer programs, software, databases, or the like" (Minnesota Statutes, section 325L.02).
http://www.mnhs.org/preserve/records...rglossary.html

The first paper filed in criminal prosecution which states the crime of which the defendant is accused.
www.utcourts.gov/resources/glossary.htm

Definitions of Words and Phrases Commonly Found in Licensing Agreements
www.library.yale.edu/~llicense/definiti.shtml

Data that have been processed and presented in a form suitable for human interpretation, often with the purpose of revealing trends or patterns.
www.cbu.edu/~lschmitt/I351/glossary.htm

A formal accusation by a prosecutor setting forth criminal charges against a person. An information is used in circuit court.
http://www.courts.state.va.us/glossa...urt_terms.html

Often used very broadly to encompass all ideas, facts, and imaginative works; can also be used to mean a single data element. Whole volumes have been written in the effort to define it satisfactorily. Information broker
www.sir.arizona.edu/resources/glossary.html

any communication or representation of knowledge such as facts, data, or opinions in any medium or form, including textual, numerical, graphic, cartographic, narrative, or audiovisual forms (OMB Circular A-130).
www.gils.net/gilsappb.html

A logarithmic measure of improbability. See Marijke's introductory article. The amount of information there is to be known about a system is what constitutes its entropy.
www.maxwellian.demon.co.uk/faq/glossary.html

Data explicitly described in the manuscripts.
www.lib.unc.edu/instruct/manuscripts/glossary/

Facts, concepts, or instructions; any sort of knowledge or supposition which can be communicated.
cedar.web.cern.ch/CEDAR/glossary.html

is organized data that has been arranged for better comprehension or understanding. What is one person's information can become an other person's data.
home.earthlink.net/~ddstuhlman/defin1.htm

Information is the sum of concepts and response rules extracted from a communcation. The maximum amount of information that can be extracted from a communication is treated in the science of "Information Theory".
http://www.intelligent-systems.com.a...t/glossary.htm

The supplier reserves the right to inform the customer of new services and products either by post or by e-mail.
www.domn.com/Nav/reservation_cg.asp

The Leader is under an obligation to:
www.ewindows.eu.org/About/terms/Leaders/

The court document that starts the prosecution of a summary conviction offence.
http://www.saskjustice.gov.sk.ca/cou...rt_terms.shtml

Formal charging document issued by a prosecuting attorney (with no grand jury involvement).
mova.missouri.org/cjterms.htm

a sworn or affirmed statement made by an informant who has reasonable and probable grounds to believe that the accused(s) has committed a criminal offence;
http://www.manitobacourts.mb.ca/engl...finitions.html

Messages used as the basis for decision-making.
http://www.pbs.org/weta/myjourneyhom.../glossary.html

http://www.answers.com/topic/equivalence

equivalence

Dictionary
e·quiv·a·lence (ĭ-kwĭv'ə-ləns)
n.
The state or condition of being equivalent; equality.
Mathematics. An equivalence relation.
Logic. The relationship that holds for two propositions that are either both true or both false, so that the affirmation of one and the denial of the other results in contradiction.


Evidence Drying Cabinets
Protect evidence and personnel from cross contamination.
www.misonix.com

Police Evidence Lockers
Keyed and Keyless (Many designs) The Law Enforcement Standard
www.americanlocker.com

Thesaurus
equivalence

noun

The state of being equivalent: equality, equation, equivalency, par, parity, sameness. See same/different/compare.

Political Smack Talk
Exercise your first amendment right Because Everyone has an opinion
www.politicalsmacktalk.com

Public Forum Debate
Forums, news, information and handbooks for PF debate.
www.thepartingshot.com

WordNet

The noun equivalence has 3 meanings:

Meaning #1: a state of being essentially equal or equivalent; equally balanced
Synonyms: equality, equation, par

Meaning #2: essential equality and interchangeability
Antonym: nonequivalence (meaning #1)

Meaning #3: qualities that are comparable
Synonyms: comparison, compare, comparability

I. Phenomena are anything observed.
2 Information is what phenomena transmit between locations in space and that is not phenomena, that is energy, potential or kinetic in some fashion distributed among the four binding forces through time.
3. Equivalence; A=B=C, then A=C
4. Matter may be concentrated energy but time is not. Time is a component of space that allows for information to travel from A to B so that it can be observed.
5. That means A is not equal to B phenomenally, or all phenomena are ultimately local
6. Explanation is a phenomenon, but the information(energy) in it is not.
7. The information(energy) may have an existence all of its own(Einstein's moon, remember?) but it is not detected until transmitted from A to B as C.

Word games are nice. Scholasts and lawyers play them well.

But the mathematics, call those who say that the transmission of information from phenomenon A to phenomenon B as being equal to A=B=C are wrong.

Equivalence to be true would have to be non-local and simultaneous. A=A=A=A etc, such that there would be no information transmitted.

And that is nonsense as we observe.

One last question.

If a god exists, who created him?

[questor]

Damocles, a formidable body of research. your bottom line, man created the God you are referring to. the real questions are: who/what created the universe? and who/what created life ? everything else flows from this.

[C1ay]

Originally Posted by questor

the real questions are: who/what created the universe? and who/what created life ? everything else flows from this.

Don't those questions assume that there was a creation. I think those questions should actually be proceeded by, "Was the universe created?" and "Was life created?". What good does it do to search for who shot J.R. if J.R. wasn't shot in the first place?

[TRoutMac]

Originally Posted by damocles

Word games are nice. Scholasts and lawyers play them well.

You forgot naturalists, Darwinists.

Originally Posted by damocles

And that is nonsense as we observe.

Damocles, you don't have to explain to me the difference between an explanation and a phenomenon. All you have to do is provide me with a natural explanation that cannot itself be referred to as a natural phenomenon. If you can do that, then you're out of the box. But you can't, which is why you spent so much energy drawing a distinction between the two words, a distinction I never even disputed. The distinction in definition is not the point. The definition and usage of the word "phenomenon" is sufficiently broad to encompass the subject of any natural explanation you can devise.

Originally Posted by damocles

If a god exists, who created him?

What's the matter? Got a problem with the concept of eternality?

You believe in the eternality of matter and energy, so why can't I believe in the eternality of God? Attributing eternality to a supernatural being is not against the rules of science, (because science can have no knowledge of the supernatural) but attributing eternality to tangible, natural matter and energy is against the rules because in the natural realm, every effect must have a cause and we know that the universe is not eternal… it had a beginning. C1ay referred numerous times in a recent post to "T=0" meaning the beginning of time. Well, if the universe is eternal, then there's no such thing as T=0.

On a scientific basis, you cannot say that "first there was nothing, and then it exploded". You cannot say that life began in some prehistoric goo, because you have to explain where the goo came from. You also cannot refer to a "big crunch" that may have preceeded the "big bang" and then say that you've answered the question, because you then have to explain where the "big crunch" came from. And on it goes, ad infinitum. If you limit yourself to natural explanations, then that's what you get… a literally infinite string of natural explanations, none of which will ever be able to actually answer the question that's driving the research, which is, "How did we get here?" Methodological naturalism can never provide us with an exhaustive answer to the question… it's an albatross around your neck.

On the other hand, since we cannot know anything about the supernatural realm, about its function, its limitations, etc., we can't say something that's supernatural can't be infinite or eternal. Therefore, my answer to your question (if you didn't figure it out already) is that God is eternal. He had no creator, He needs no creator. Is that testable? Absolutely not. But it makes more sense in that it is an exhaustive answer. It's not just pushing the question back another step.

[questor]

here may be some better questions :
how did the universe occur?
how did order occur in the universe?
how did information ( such as that in DNA ) occur?
without order there is chaos. the universe is ordered from the smallest particle to the largest event. events tend to be chaotic and random unless controlled by some force.
what could that force be?
DNA produces the order of reproduction. it contains information and is present in all living things.
chaos would mean that there are no curbs or predictability in evolution.
all of this occurred before man invented God. it has nothing to do with man's concept of God.

[C1ay]

Originally Posted by TRoutMac

...every effect must have a cause and we know that the universe is not eternal… it had a beginning.

No, we do not know if the universe is eternal or not and we do not know that it had a beginning. If you have proof to the contrary please present it.

[TRoutMac]

Originally Posted by C1ay

No, we do not know if the universe is eternal or not and we do not know that it had a beginning. If you have proof to the contrary please present it.

If you don't recognise that the universe had a beginning (is finite) then why did you use the term "T=0" in your earlier post? Isn't true that if the universe had no beginning that there's no such point in time to which we can refer?

[C1ay]

Originally Posted by TRoutMac

If you don't recognise that the universe had a beginning (is finite) then why did you use the term "T=0" in your earlier post? Isn't true that if the universe had no beginning that there's no such point in time to which we can refer?

I only used it because it is the standard reference for the beginning of the universe we see, not because I think it really was the beginning of time. We have no way to know if time had any beginning and likely never will. We also have zero evidence that there was ever a point in time when there was nothing, no energy, no matter such that they could be created. If they were created though, what could they have been forged from if there truly was nothing? What could have been used for building blocks and what evidence to we have to form a valid hypothesis that this was the case?

[damocles]

The Question is not WHAT.
The Question is not WHO.
The Question is HOW?

Again the word games.

T=0?
Has no-one learned this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_number
Plug those numbers into some equations and look at some of the results.

I don't have to provide an exclusion set of phenomena to anyone, especially when such an exclusion set apriori would impose a field boundary of non-information distribution.

That would defeat the purpose of the ID argument and if the ID proponents cannot see that, then they don't understand this statement.

For a god to create a universe, it becomes part of it.

That anyone would try this: to pull the wool over the eyes of people by trying to use the tree in the forest argument is unworthy and demonstrates the most superficial and SLOPPY thinking as to phenomena and information.

Visualize this to this extent.(Boolean logic here, folks.)

http://www.stat.yale.edu/Courses/1997-98/101/venn1.gif

A, the red field, is the god. B, the blue field, is the object it created. This is A and B not merged. There is no information transfer across the boundary. BUT THERE IS THE BOUNDARY(actually two boundaries) AND THAT IS INFORMATION.

http://www.stat.yale.edu/Courses/1997-98/101/venn2.gif

A, the red field, is the god. B, the blue field, is the object it created. This is A and B in an overlap merge. Notice that it is not congruent(A=A). This is to satisfy the nonequivalence requirement that A must be greater than B in order to create B.(Tenet of ID design.)
Now the merge contains information common to both, phenomena to both, observable to both.

One more time, If it, a god, created nature, it becomes part of it, nature. It cannot help that outcome; simply due to the fact that it exists and created investigators that are hunting for it. It can be investigated by its effects, whether boundary separated or merged.

The Id advocates refuse to understand that ANY distribution of information between A and B results in this outcome. Instead the ID crowd play word games, sophistry.

The mathematics and the logic as stated sixteen times and counting show otherwise.

Now I've simplified this down to bedrock with pretty Venn diagrams so that words won't be the only way to illustrate the principles discussed.

When lawyers and sophists try to argue with words to squirm around the premise break out the logic.

Suppose some god did create the universe and then separated itrself from it by a field boundary.

Here's the clue phone. Do you hear it ringing?

There is a boundary. Something that you can see and test. Trace evidence.

A god is part of the nature, it creates. Or it did not create it.
That is why; if there is a god, it will leave footie prints.

Now as to eternality? First the word, the last time I checked was eternity.

Second if the ID crowd actually sat down and thought about time as a function of entropic space, they would realize that time itself is as changable and conserved as any other function of "reality".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous_function

In mathematics, a continuous function is a function in which arbitrarily small changes in the input produce arbitrarily small changes in the output. If small changes in the input can produce a broken jump in the changes of the output (or the value of the output is not defined), the function is said to be discontinuous (or to have a discontinuity). The context in this entry is real-valued functions on the real domain or on topological or metric spaces other than the complex numbers; for complex-valued functions see complex analysis. The notable difference in approach is that in the present context, the points in the domain that would be regarded as singularities (points of discontinuity) in the complex domain are usually assumed to be absent, or they are explicitly excluded, so as to leave a function that is continuous on a disconnected real domain.

As an example, consider the function h(t) which describes the height of a growing flower at time t. This function is continuous (unless the flower is cut). As another example, if T(x) denotes the air temperature at height x, then this function is also continuous. In fact, there is a dictum of classical physics which states that in nature everything is continuous. By contrast, if M(t) denotes the amount of money in a bank account at time t, then the function jumps whenever money is deposited or withdrawn, so the function M(t) is discontinuous.

There are also some more special usages of continuity in some mathematical disciplines. Probably the most common one, found in topology, is described in the article on continuity (topology). In order theory, especially in domain theory, one considers a notion derived from this basic definition, which is known as Scott continuity.

You can think of time as a continuous function smeared across space.(Even if it is quantized time.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Function_(mathematics)

In mathematics, a function is a relation, such that each element of a set (the domain) is associated with a unique element of another (possibly the same) set (the codomain, not to be confused with the range). The concept of a function is fundamental to virtually every branch of mathematics and every quantitative science.

The terms function, mapping, map and transformation are usually used synonymously. The term operation is frequently used for binary functions; functions whose domain is a set of functions, or a vector space, are often called operators (see also operator (programming)).

That implies that there is another condition outside the universe called notime-a property of NOTHING.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing

Nothing is the lack or absence of anything. "Nothing" and "zero" are closely related but not identical concepts. The term "nothing" is rarely used mathematically, though it could be said that a set contains nothing if (and only if) it is the empty set, in which case its cardinality (or size) is zero. Nothing differs from zero in the way that zero is something, a finite amount which is defined. While nothing overlaps the quantity zero, in the way that it also is, when finitely defined, zero, it differs in the way that it has no specific basis like zero does in numbers.

From a philosophical point of view, the concept of "nothing" can have many interpretations. In fact, people can even state that nothing does not exist. You cannot sense, see, feel, or think nothing. There is no contact with nothing. Nothing is where everything isn't. Visualizing "nothing" would make "something". It could be seen as a physical void or as just a word which only has meaning when used to describe a relationship between different "somethings". A single "correct" definition of nothing could be considered impossible, since "right" and "wrong" do not fit within the confines of nothing.

The concept of "nothing" has been studied throughout history by philosophers and theologians; many have found that careful consideration of the notion can easily lead to the logical fallacy of reification. The understanding of "nothing" varies widely between cultures, especially between Western and Eastern cultures and philosophical traditions, though existentialism, and in particular Heidegger have brought the understandings closer together.

Informally, a person, event or object might be said to be nothing if particularly unimpressive.

Nothing is a state of being, in a sense, not being. Ceasing to exist.

That terrifies some people. Not me. Is just is. And I want to KNOW.

Now if the ID crowd want answers to how everything works(including what started it, if anything) which they demand as part of the refutation of the "god exists" hypothesis by scientists?

1. Lead
2. Follow
3. Get out of our way.

For this will be tested in negation as part of the routine investigative process.

For you see, even if the ID crowd is terrified of the answers and the investigations underway and want to halt the work in progress so that they can hide behind ignorance and mystery, that is not going to happen.

If you WANT your computers and your fuel cells and your nanotechnology and your fusion power, then the fundamentals of how nature works will be probed to the limit of the macro and the micro. I confidently expect that in the mundane hunting along the way that how will become much clearer in explanation.

I will not live to see this.

It will take as many as three to five geniuses(and I mean genius in the vein of someone so smart and clear in his thinking that he makes me embarassed to be so stupid; as he clearly and simply explains the new OBVIOUS to schmucks like me.) to bend the kinks out of the mathematics. Unfortiunatelely such clear thinkers are rare. Maybe we get one to three of them every hundred years to do this work. They do the mathematics that the rest of the scientists use to explain how; as those workers investigate away in obscurity, One of those toilers may be the investigator that answers the ID questions with a single discovery.(LIGO and its successors?)

That work is not something that computers can do well. It takes MEN/WOMEN of clear mind and self-assured courage and a certain humility in the face of the unknown.

Which is exactly the opposite of the arrogance associated with smug self-satisfied ignorance.

Best wishes;

[TRoutMac]

Originally Posted by damocles

A god is part of the nature, it creates. Or it did not create it. That is why; if there is a god, it will leave footie prints.

First: A creator does not BECOME part of his creation, although He can enter it. If I create a painting, I don't become part of it, do I? No. I remain distinct from the painting. God is distinct from His creation, although He interacts with it. Also, when I paint, I leave behind evidence that the painting was not an accident. This leads to your "footie prints"…

Second: That God has left "footie prints" should be obvious to anyone who will open their eyes. On that we agree. There is indirect evidence of God (or, at the very least, an intelligent designer) everywhere. If you don't see this evidence, it's simply because you're eyes are shut. Short of God actually appearing in person, it could not possibly be more obvious.

Originally Posted by damocles

Now as to eternality? First the word, the last time I checked was eternity.

Look it up. They're synonyms.