[Erasmus00]

Rather then post this in another thread, I thought I'd ask the question here. Allegory in the bible is everywhere, especially the new testament where Jesus often speaks in parables. Why then should we take the creation story to be literal, and not allegorical, truth?
-Will

[Southtown]

Good question. I think the answer lies in how the NT writers interpreted it, being Jewish themselves. Unless evidence backs it up, the bible will remain the sole interpreter of itself. So far I think it's pretty dead on...

“This is now, beloved, the second epistle that I write unto you; and in both of them I stir up your sincere mind by putting you in remembrance; that ye should remember the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and the commandments of the Lord and Saviour through your apostles: knowing this first, that in the last days mockers shall come with mockery, walking after their own lusts, and saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for, from the day that the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willfully forget, that there were heavens from of old, and an earth compacted out of water and amidst water, by the word of God; by which means the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: but the heavens that now are, and the earth, by the same word have been stored up for fire, being reserved against the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.” — 2 Peter 3:2-7 asv

[TRoutMac]

Originally Posted by Erasmus00

Rather then post this in another thread, I thought I'd ask the question here. Allegory in the bible is everywhere, especially the new testament where Jesus often speaks in parables. Why then should we take the creation story to be literal, and not allegorical, truth?

Allegory in the Bible exists, true. But where it exists, it is identified as such. In addition, studying the Bible in the proper historical context reveals what were common idioms and figures of speech at that time and what was not, which adds another layer of support. Southtown is also quite correct to say that interpretations of the Genesis account within the New Testament provide reinforcement for the idea that it should be taken literally. Understand, none of this proves the veracity of the Bible… ultimately, that is taken on faith.

As you know, I relish the opportunity to point out instances where people who would criticize, for example, Intelligent Design as an "argument from ignorance" or a "God of the Gaps" theory make exactly that mistake when looking at, for example, the Bible. And this is just such an instance. It would seem that many people, perhaps you included, when faced with a text for which they believe they have no logical explanation for automatically shove it into the category of "allegory". If you don't understand it or cannot conceive of it, then it must be allegory. Argument from ignorance.

[Erasmus00]

Originally Posted by TRoutMac

Allegory in the Bible exists, true. But where it exists, it is identified as such.

Certianly there are times where it IS identified as such. However, there may be other allergories that aren't immediately identified.

And this is just such an instance. It would seem that many people, perhaps you included, when faced with a text for which they believe they have no logical explanation for automatically shove it into the category of "allegory". If you don't understand it or cannot conceive of it, then it must be allegory. Argument from ignorance.

No. My argument isn't one from ignorance. I look at the bible as largely a book about how to live your life, morals, ethics. It's primary purpose, it would seem, is not historical. As such, a creation allegory could be more powerful then a literal truth.

Also, my question was directed at those who take the bible as word for word truth. I'm not one of them. I believe it was written by man, and man is imperfect. There are parts of the bible that my sense of morality/ethics simple won't let me believe. I believe that sense of ethics comes from God or what have you, so the bible must not be exactly the word of God.
-Will

[Southtown]

You're right, Will. The bible believers can live holy lives completely oblivious to the origins debate. There is a tendency for believers to get a little more committed to the issue than is required by scripture.

[Uber Dwayne]

It's primary purpose, it would seem, is not historical. As such, a creation allegory could be more powerful then a literal truth.

All though living a moral life is a big theme in the Bible, it does not neccessarily negate the historical aspect as well. The jewish people held records of Geneologies, and held the identity of that person from previous generations. for example, bob, the son of Joe. We can also see numerous chapters in the bible completely devoted to Geneologies. A the son of B the son of C, who begat D, and so on and so forth.

Not withstanding, if the Genesis account was to be interpreted as allegory, why then would Moses have said "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it." Ex 20:11
Do you think that God would have corrected Moses and said, "You know Moses, Your wrong, thats actually an allegory, you should really correct that to say 6 billions years I worked and for that last billion years I've been blessing my creation." Does that then give Jews and Christians a like the justification to sit around and collect unemployment for the rest of our lives?

Once again, there is nothing in the bible that exemplifies the Genesis account as being an allegory. If there is, I'd certainly like to see it. au contraire, further study seems to dictate otherwise

[TRoutMac]

Originally Posted by Uber Dwayne

Not withstanding, if the Genesis account was to be interpreted as allegory, why then would Moses have said "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it." Ex 20:11
Do you think that God would have corrected Moses and said, "You know Moses, Your wrong, thats actually an allegory, you should really correct that to say 6 billions years I worked and for that last billion years I've been blessing my creation." Does that then give Jews and Christians a like the justification to sit around and collect unemployment for the rest of our lives?

Very well-put. The sabbath day was given to Israel as a day of rest because the 7th day was a day of "rest" for God after creation. If the 7th "day" of creation was actually a billion years, then the sabbath day ought to also be a billion years.

Originally Posted by Uber Dwayne

Once again, there is nothing in the bible that exemplifies the Genesis account as being an allegory. If there is, I'd certainly like to see it. au contraire, further study seems to dictate otherwise

Well, I agree completely with you. However, some folks around here are so certain that science is perfect (or so it would seem) and never makes big, embarassing mistakes, (evolution, the age of the Earth, geocentricity, etc) that they'll try to claim that science itself "exemplifies the Genesis account as being an allegory". I believe, however, that honestly pursued and interpreted, scientific evidence would eventually align to support the Biblical account, and I think it's pretty obvious that's happening even today.

[TRoutMac]

Originally Posted by Erasmus00

Also, my question was directed at those who take the bible as word for word truth. I'm not one of them.

Yes, I understand. And of course, that is entirely your prerogative. I do accept the Bible as truth, and do believe it was divinely inspired.

Originally Posted by Erasmus00

There are parts of the bible that my sense of morality/ethics simple won't let me believe. I believe that sense of ethics comes from God or what have you, so the bible must not be exactly the word of God.

Well, yes… if there are things in the Bible that offend your sense of morals and ethics, then either of two things is true: Either the Bible is not really the Word of God, or you've placed yourself in a position of telling God how He should run things. I can understand why you would assume it is the former.

Actually, and to be fair, there is a third, very strong possibility: that you simply haven't understood [the things which offend you] in their proper historical (and Biblical) context.

[Edge]

Originally Posted by TRoutMac

Well, I agree completely with you. However, some folks around here are so certain that science is perfect (or so it would seem) and never makes big, embarassing mistakes,

Science is not perfect, it changes to the evidence that it is found over the Universe. Nothing is absolute in science; however, what we have now as "science" is the best explanation we have.

Back in the day the conservation of matter and the conservation of energy principles were taken as absolutes... until Einstein showed that they were related with E=mc^2... was that an embarrasing mistake?

I believe, however, that honestly pursued and interpreted, scientific evidence would eventually align to support the Biblical account, and I think it's pretty obvious that's happening even today.

It may be supporting the Biblical account, but I don't think it does support the literal interpretation of the Biblical account.

[Vending]

troutmac, have you ever read an article intittled "The Age of the Earth: Ruminations of a Reluctant Old Earth Creationist"? I would be interested to hear your thoughts on the article. I thought it was well written and thought out. Particularly interesting was the idea that either the earth is old or God must have created it in such a way that it appears old to us. You are left then with the conclusion that God diliberately has tried to trick us (or he mis-understands us) or the earth really is quite old. At least that is how i understood his argument.

Anyway, the link is as follows...

http://lordibelieve.org/time/AgeEarthTC.htm

If you have time, i would love to hear your thoughts, since you seem to be willing to think about things.