Show Me And I’ll Believe

[Tormod]

Originally Posted by jetzeppelin

Evolutionary data will never be sufficient enough. I should say hypotheses or speculation to be more accurate, I guess.

Moving this thread to theology where it belongs.

[jetzeppelin]

Originally Posted by Tormod

Moving this thread to theology where it belongs.

I apologize for going on a tangent, I guess it is in my nature haha, I think too much sometimes.

[jetzeppelin]

Originally Posted by Tormod

I don't remember offering you a description. How about bothering to read a book about evolution? I can recommend a visit to your local library.

Darwinian evolution by its nature requires an increase in information. For one creature to change intoa completely different species over eons of time.

Adaptation is, different, it can occur in minuscule amounts of time, and no new information is gained.

I am a thinking Christian, and I think it is idiotic to deny adaptation, but I cannot find the faith within myself to invest in such a theory, a claim as extraordinary as Darwin has made requires more than observations in the present, it requires proof from the past. Proof, not evidence.

[Tormod]

jetzeppelin - your comments about evolution shows that you are not aware of what evolutionary theory is.

[Pyrotex]

Originally Posted by jetzeppelin

Evolutionary data will never be sufficient enough. Evolution is not science, it is not observable or testable...
Honestly I don't think evolution will ever be proven, and even if it does, that does not account for the origin of matter.

Of course it won't ever be enough. You are not searching for data.
Yes, it is observable and testable. It has been observed and tested.
No, I will not show you. Your title is not actually true; I and a thousand others could show you, and you still would not believe.
"Honestly,..." That may be the key problem here. Once one commits oneself to the realm of make-believe and rigidity, honesty becomes just another myth.
"...and even if it does"--you deny its validity with one hand and then state your rock-bound, unflinching, refusal to accept even if it were proven to you.
You are not searching for proof.
And you are not searching for the origin of matter.
You are not searching for Truth, whatever that may be.
You are not "searching" at all.
Your mind is a fossil, an ancient belief trapped in stone.

"None are so blind as they who will not see."

But the irony, the real corker, the thigh-slapper is this:
Nowhere in the New Testament is there one word -- not one word --
that forbids you to accept the reality of evolution or any other scientific conclusion.

[jetzeppelin]

Originally Posted by Pyrotex

Of course it won't ever be enough. You are not searching for data.
Yes, it is observable and testable. It has been observed and tested.
No, I will not show you. Your title is not actually true; I and a thousand others could show you, and you still would not believe.
"Honestly,..." That may be the key problem here. Once one commits oneself to the realm of make-believe and rigidity, honesty becomes just another myth.
"...and even if it does"--you deny its validity with one hand and then state your rock-bound, unflinching, refusal to accept even if it were proven to you.
You are not searching for proof.
And you are not searching for the origin of matter.
You are not searching for Truth, whatever that may be.
You are not "searching" at all.
Your mind is a fossil, an ancient belief trapped in stone.

"None are so blind as they who will not see."

But the irony, the real corker, the thigh-slapper is this:
Nowhere in the New Testament is there one word -- not one word --
that forbids you to accept the reality of evolution or any other scientific conclusion.

Thanks for the ad hominem attack.

Btw

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Of course the Bible wouldn't specifically quote "evolution" or natural theory. It does not tell us what not to believe in regards to creation, but it does tell us what to believe.

And because I do not follow the dogmatic pursuit of empirical evidence for anything that is to be believed, my mind isa fossil? Because I have examined science, cosmology and philosophy and have come to the reasonable conclusion of a Creator?

I am not in pursuit for the origin of matter, I know where it came from, but because my presupposition differs from yours you think it is foolishness. But to me it is foolishness to simply let knowledge rest and claim to absurd theories of matter coming into the universe without cause, and theories of infinitely collapsing and expanding universes.

No natural theory ever has even come close to an explanation for the beginning of matter, besides grapsing at straws saying "it has always been" ot "it comes and goes", which has been proven over and over and over again to be an philosophical and physical impossibility.

[Kevin Wirth]

Originally Posted by Tormod

I don't remember offering you a description. How about bothering to read a book about evolution? I can recommend a visit to your local library.

True - you didn't offer a description, and I never said you did. I'm issuing a challenge here. I'm asking you or anyone else in this forum to simply respond the my original challenge, which is the first comment I posted in this thread.

[Kevin Wirth]

Also,

I'd sure like to know my question was "moved" to this "Theology" forum? I asked a question about evolutionary evidence - and made absolutely ZERO mention about anything religious.

Moving my question here is pretty twisted. I did NOT ask a theological question.

[Pyrotex]

Originally Posted by jetzeppelin

Thanks for the ad hominem attack.

That was NOT an ad hominem attack. Go look it up.

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

This quote has NO relevance to whether or not biological lifeforms change or evolve over time. Apparantly, because it contained the word "creation", you thought it proved something, or supported your point of view.

Of course the Bible ...does not tell us what not to believe in regards to creation, but it does tell us what to believe..

With regard to what? And having been a fundementalist preacher in my twenties, I can honestly say the Bible does NOT tell you what to believe. Go ahead, quote me the verses that say, "and thou shalt believe..." followed by a list.

And because I do not follow the dogmatic pursuit of empirical evidence for anything that is to be believed,....

Contradiction in terms. Wow, your batting average is damn near a 1000.
[/quote]...but because my presupposition differs from yours you think it is foolishness. [/quote] No, it's not your presuppostions, but your ironclad commitment that your opinion cannot be changed, even in the face of proof.

So, the bottom line is this: YOU WIN! You said that nothing can change your mind, and you are obviously 100% correct. I'm fine with that. Why should I be in the slightest "challenged" by your gauntlet toss? Do you think I'm going to spend my precious time trying to change your mind? No way!

The game is over, and you win. So stop whining.

[Erasmus00]

Originally Posted by jetzeppelin

The day a scientist creates an electron, proton or neutron from nihilos, that is the day I will stop believing in a Creator.

Electrons/positrons pop out of nothing all the time. So do photons, even protons/antiprotons Google vacuum fluctuation for the theory, or Casimir effect for the experimental evidence.
-Will