Atheism and Faith

[Tormod]

Sorry, I take that back. I was confusing two threads. Ignore the above post.

[Tormod]

Originally Posted by Biochemist

To contend there is no God (as opposed to contending one can't prove it) is a more assertive position, and I suggest it requires a shred of belief. It might be a small enough shred that one might call it bias, but that is still belief.

So let's simplify. I tell you that I have three marbles. I show you a red one, and I show you a yellow one, one in each hand.

Then I say: "In my pocket I have a third marble. What color is it?"

Do you believe that I have the marble there?

These are the options granted me in this thread:

1) Yes, the marble is there and I don't need to prove it
2) No, the marble isn't there, but I can't prove it

While I claim that there is a third option:

3) It doesn't matter

I would like to hear how option 3 above can be understood as "belief".

I maintain that the only reason to claim that 3) is belief is that alternatives 1) and 2) both require faith. 3) disregards faith because it refuses to accept the imperative of the question!

[questor]

Tormod, as administrator you have the power to move threads, but if you read what has already been written, you can readily see the difference in responses to these two different threads. this is asking for information as to why someone believes in a diety or not. this has nothing to do with creation of the universe, unless one is unable to separate these two issues. why don't you let this ride for awhile to see what responses are posted? we may have some interesting answers.

[Tormod]

I already posted that my suggestion to end this discussion was wrong.

[questor]

since most people grow up in a family with some type of religious background,
or are certainly aware that religion is a major presence in society, i'm trying to determine what thought process they go through to continue their belief in a diety, or what factors convince them there is no diety. this type of question could be answered in this way:
1. i believe in God because... or,
2. i don't believe in God because...
Tormod, you have already stated you don't believe, but have i missed the part where you explained why? were you raised in an atheistic family?
did you ever attend church? do your parents know or care about your atheism?

[Zythryn]

I would label myself an athiest although the discussion. I could be proven wrong and I can't say that it is impossible for god to exist, so perhaps agnostic would also suffice. However, I also don't believe that an invisible, undetectable pink elephant exists in my house. Can't be proven but I still don't believe it

As for why, the study of the bible, and the dictates of organized Christian religion and the reality of the world have taught me this. Add to that the behavior of many 'religious' people and it strengthens that lack of faith.

If it is also important for your queury, I started off in a conservative, religious family growing up (which is where the study of the bible came in).

Mark

[questor]

Mark, you replied:
''As for why, the study of the bible, and the dictates of organized Christian religion and the reality of the world have taught me this. Add to that the behavior of many 'religious' people and it strengthens that lack of faith''.
would you agree that the activities of religious people is not directed by God and has nothing to do with the existence of God? would you be more specific about your thought processes that led you to your current beliefs?

[Zythryn]

Hmmm, perhaps I need to reconsider.
I don't believe in the social construct of modern organized religion, I don't know if any type of god exists. Howerver, I also don't know if an undetectable, invisible pink elephant exists in my house. Because I have no evidence of either, I can't know if either exists. But I think I would still call myself an athiest.

As the people's actions reflect on organized religion and not on the concept of god, they should not influence my belief in god.

However, the organized religions that do 'tell' me what god is, leads me to not believe in 'their' god. I have heard everything from; all-knowing, all-caring, vengeful, jealous, all-powerful and a host of others. And this is just from Christianity

It is normal for mankind to try to explain the unknown. We have (as a race) created thousands of gods to explain anything we were afraid of or didn't understand.

I respect anyone else's faith as long as it does not negatively affect me or others (if someone believes they need to sacrifice a virgin to their god I sure as heck am not going to stand by when they come to take my sister away).

[Biochemist]

Originally Posted by Tormod

So let's simplify. I tell you that I have three marbles. I show you a red one, and I show you a yellow one, one in each hand.

Then I say: "In my pocket I have a third marble. What color is it?"

Do you believe that I have the marble there?

These are the options granted me in this thread:

1) Yes, the marble is there and I don't need to prove it
2) No, the marble isn't there, but I can't prove it

While I claim that there is a third option:

3) It doesn't matter

I would like to hear how option 3 above can be understood as "belief".

I maintain that the only reason to claim that 3) is belief is that alternatives 1) and 2) both require faith. 3) disregards faith because it refuses to accept the imperative of the question!

Goodness, Tormod. This is a little tortuous. Your three options are not the definitions of the positions as all. In your allegory, the options would be:

1) Yes, I believe the marble is there (although I have no evidence)
2) No, I believe the marble is not there (although I have no evidence) and
3) I can't tell whether the marble is there. I therefore to not take a position.

Agnostics (option 3) do not impute any sense of value, or even plausibility. Agnostics only assert that either position cannot be known. Option 2 is the atheist position.

In any case, it looks (again) to me like you slotted yourself closest to the agnostic camp. But I don't mean to press you on this, I don't really think it matters how you classify yourself.

[TheBigDog]

Atheism is its own form of faith.

I am not the best candidate for conversion at this point in my life. I am appropriately firm and polite when being preached to by those who would see my soul redeemed in some fashion other than the path I have chosen. I am also appropriately firm with atheists who would sell me on the stupidity of faith. It is a person's right to believe anything they choose. In the end facts are telling, but until such a time, I don't really give two hoots about someones personal relationship with God, no matter what the form. No matter what a person's choice of belief in a deity, it is in the end a personal choice that they will realize the truth of in good time. Atheists belittling the belief in a deity as something akin to mental illness or childhood fascination with boogie men are sinking to the same level as the recruit happy religious zealots that they complain so dearly about to begin with. It is no more your place to try and disuade people from their chosen path than it is theirs to persuade you to join them. It is no sign of weakness of mind or stupidity for a person to have faith.

As Shakespear said via Hamlet, "There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy, Horatio."

Bill