Atheism and Faith

[C1ay]

Originally Posted by TheBigDog

Atheism is its own form of faith.

I disagree. For me, deities and creationism are just theories like the big bang and evolution, nothing more, nothing less. There is no proof for any of them and no reason for anyone to expect that my lack of belief in any of them is a form of faith, it is merely science. I do not need to claim that any of them are wrong or impossible to be an atheist. I need only have a lack of belief in deitism based on my view of the evidence. That is not a claim that deitism is impossible, but it still makes me atheist because one definition of atheism is defined as a lack of belief, not a claim that Gods don't exist, another, separate definition of atheism.

As a scientist I conceed the possibility that any theory could be true. That I decline to attempt to prove any of them wrong does not make my action one of faith. That I choose not to accept someone's alleged evidence in support of any theory as "evidence enough", to believe the same as themself, does not make my position one of faith.

I also know that there are atheists that make the claim, as fact, that gods do not exist, some say that gods are not even possible. Their position in this respect is one of faith. Some even say there is no burden for them to support a claim they make as factual without supportive evidence. IMO, this is just another theory, unproven like all the rest, but that's not faith either, just science.

Atheism is a broad term. There are different kinds, some atheism is a form of faith, some is not. There is no fine line separating different kinds of atheists and no blanket statement that "atheism is a form of faith" fits them all.

[infamous]

Originally Posted by Tormod

I am an atheist. There are no gods.

In all fairness Tormod, it is entirely one thing to say, "I do not believe in God", and quite another to say, "There are no gods". The statement, "There are no gods" is a direct statement of assumed fact, and to be truly scientific, facts do not exist without evidence.................Infy

[TheBigDog]

Take the analogy of the cat in the box. But instead of the cat, God is in the box. Our box is a tricky one, and nobody knows how to open it and look inside. We may not know how to open it forever. By extension, for this analogy, if God is in the box, then God exists. If God is not in the box, then God doesn't exist. Looking in the box would be absolute proof. Believers have faith that when they look in the box they will see god, based upon whatever criteria they choose but lacking absolute proof. Agnostics don't know what they will see when they look in the box. Athiests have faith that God is not in the box based upon any criteria they choose but lacking absolute proof. Two groups make commitments on faith, and one group sits on the fence. For my purposes I try to look at it that simply.

Bill

[C1ay]

Originally Posted by TheBigDog

Athiests have faith that God is not in the box based upon any criteria they choose but lacking absolute proof. Two groups make commitments on faith, and one group sits on the fence. For my purposes I try to look at it that simply.

Bill

You cannot lump all atheists in one group like this. An atheist does not have to claim "there is no god" to be an atheist. Simply lacking belief based on the evidence thus far is sufficient. Agnosticism is the claim that the existance of god cannot be proven either way, not just a claim that we don't know if god exists or not.

[infamous]

Originally Posted by C1ay

You cannot lump all atheists in one group like this. An atheist does not have to claim "there is no god" to be an atheist.

That is very true C1ay, but those that do claim, "there is no god" do so based on faith even though they still are, by their own definition 'atheists'..................Infy

[TheBigDog]

Originally Posted by C1ay

You cannot lump all atheists in one group like this. An atheist does not have to claim "there is no god" to be an atheist. Simply lacking belief based on the evidence thus far is sufficient. Agnosticism is the claim that the existance of god cannot be proven either way, not just a claim that we don't know if god exists or not.

Point taken C1ay as based upon the definitions given earlier on this thread. But I think the definitions put forward on this thread earlier are not entirly correct. An atheist does not believe that God exists. While an agnostic believes that the evidence is inconclusive to prove the existance of God. By these definitions you do indeed have to claim that there is no God to call yourself an atheist. If you have doubt about there being no God, but do not believe for lack of evidence then you are agnostic. Those definitions are what I based the analogy upon.

Bill <--- hair splitter

Its late, I should get to bed.

[C1ay]

Originally Posted by TheBigDog

An atheist does not believe that God exists.

True. That does not mean that all atheists claim god doesn't exist. To say that deist theorists have not proven their belief is not the same as saying they are all wrong even though both are atheist statements. One statement is fact, the other is faith.

[pgrmdave]

There are more shades of atheism than I can begin to describe - I know atheists who genuinely don't care, to them it doesn't even begin to factor into their lives. I know atheists who do tend to treat it as a faith, adhering stringently to it and claiming that anything else is wrong, there must not be any gods. I'be known atheists who, I think like C1ay and Tormod, approached the problem logically, saw the evidence, and found that there was as much evidence for a god as for dragons, wizards, goblins, and fairys. Do you claim that disbelieving in dragons wizards, goblins and fairys is based on faith? I doubt it - you can argue the point, but by and large, it is not the same kind of faith as one has in a god.

[ughaibu]

TheBigDog: A person who says "I do not believe in god" does not have to believe that god does not exist, their statement only concerns themself, it says nothing about god. They have not expressed any belief, only the lack of a particular belief. The question of whether they believe that there is no god or they believe that gods are possible but unproven/unindicated/etc or dont consider the question important enough to have a feeling strong enough to qualify as a belief, is undecidable from the statement given by you as a definition of an atheist.

[questor]

from Wikipedia:
''Atheism, in its broadest sense, is an absence of belief in the existence of gods. This definition includes both those who assert that there are no gods, and those who make no claim about whether gods exist or not. Narrower definitions, however, often only qualify those who assert there are no gods as atheists, labelling the others as agnostics or simply non-theists''.
while there may differences in atheists, i would think that all people who call themselves by that title share a belief that there is no God.