[ughaibu]

The process of selection initially selects itself, no design is implied.

[Boerseun]

Originally Posted by arkain101

Although it appears, at least to me, that you are the intelligent mind and designer behind this "random generater". If it has intent, it has intelligence. In other words, try spelling darwin rules, with complete random chaos. If your mind is involved or the program is 'designed' in such a way to accomplish something, a form of intelligence should be agreed to have pre existed the creation of your random generation, should it not?

No. That is exactly what I said in my post. Me saying I want the sentence "Darwin Rules" from a random generator, is analogous to the environment dictating what requirements the animal should meet, simply by killing those that don't. No design is implied, or needed. We breathe air and live kinda comfortably on Earth, because that is the environment our ancestors were exposed to. Those that didn't dig the circumstances, died.

[arkain101]

More on some basic principles.

The universe can NOT operate on a infinite Time scale with the big bang theory of operation, when considering such an event under operation with our current known view on the physics of this universe.

The entropy of the universe is estimated to be in the range of about 1 billion. This means that it does not have very efficient bounce back mechanics. Since the universe has been measured unable to achieve infinite big bangs, we can confinently agree that unless it was perfectly 100% efficient the universe would eventually shrink into smaller and smaller bangs and into nothingness. Infinity requires 100% efficiency. Since we are in a universe that is not collapsed into a nothingness, we can let go of the possibility of an infinite timeline universe.

Some arguments are that we may be in the right bang in order for the universe to be like it is. The arguments are discredited due to the fact there would be infinite past bangs in an infinite realm and it is IMPOSSIBLE to claim if you are near the begginning or the end in a realm that has neither.

This directly explains that the universe can not exist in an infinite timeline. With that cleared we can move on to agree the universe must have been created and has been measured to have been created rather recently as time scale goes in respect to the universe. AKA, the universe is still pretty young. This is measured in several ways. The slowing down of the expansion, the velocity, the de-acceleration and the forces involved can explain just how long it should have been in motion. Aswell as other details such as, heavy materials still exist naturally in the universe. Heavy materials that are unstable like uranium for example.

So the universe is a One time deal. It is extremely finely tuned. It was created and not only that, but TIME was also created along with the creation of the universe. As far as current theory goes time is as much as a physical part of the universe as anything else. It is a dimension, just as is our space. So it too was created.

We have hopefully at this point reached agreement the universe was created and not infinite random chaos.
This creation was a first time one time deal (in respect to this current universe).

In this creation, matter, energy, and time were created and designed with intent as for it to function with precision and purpose and together these parts are meshed together to form its operation.

If we agree on these points we can move on to this next point. Where and how can you take a bunch of zero's / 0's and make a 1?
Since the universe was created as a beginning in respect to physical and its time, where or what was prior to this existence? this 1?

Logically, Mathamatically, or Scientifically it would seem that some thing had to have pre - existed seperate from this realm where this 1 appeared from a 0. The 0 must be named or responsible. It has properties outside of our ability to think, but is what must have pre-existed the creation of time and space and would need to contain Information in order to design, intelligence in order to design.

[Boerseun]

The fact that the universe exists as it is, points to one thing only: It exists as is, because if it was any different, we, the observers, wouldn't have known any better, and thought that the different way is the way. We wouldn't have noticed anything different. If it was so much different that our existence would have been impossible, well, then we wouldn't have been here to notice. Fact is, the Universe actually don't care.

This universe might be the latest incarnation of a 'pulsating' universe, in which stuffs expands from the initial explosion, and then reach a point where everything falls back in on itself, and creates a massive black hole which then explodes again, forming the next universe. In which case the universe is ageless, and the question of a beginning or end becomes meaningless.

The visible universe might just be a small speck in a gigantic multiverse, in which a foam of universes constantly come into being, without ever intersecting each other. This multiverse is timeless and boundless, and to worry about the origins of the local universe in this scenario is like saying a television needs a factory, 'cause it was obviously 'made' - and then to forget about the hundreds of people who put the factory together. The factory is not the end of the line, if we trace the origins of manufactured products back - someone had to build the factory. Same with God.

You can logically deduce a God as the instigator of the Universe, but as I have shown above, there are possible forms of the Universe that simply don't need one. We have to determine the form of the universe first before we can infer any supernatural beings to its origins.

[arkain101]

First I just want to point out my opening statement.

The universe can NOT operate on a infinite Time line with the big bang theory of operation, when considering such an event under operation with our current known view on the physics of this universe.

I was refering directly to this theory to avoid this exact situation we find ourselves in with this argument of yours where we stray off topic. This topic in general is meant to remain on the basics. This particular post was to single out the big bang theory and describe its incapabilites and capabilites.

The fact that the universe exists as it is, points to one thing only: It exists as is, because if it was any different, we, the observers, wouldn't have known any better, and thought that the different way is the way. We wouldn't have noticed anything different. If it was so much different that our existence would have been impossible, well, then we wouldn't have been here to notice. Fact is, the Universe actually don't care.

I understand this argument. I have considered the same argument. But it seems to be an argument that is senseless, as it seems too commondly used on both sides of these debates. By straying off the subject, which was targeted on the big bang idea, a defense is made by bringing up wild alternative ideas, which do nothing more than attempt to immediatly debunk the others idea to no avail and confuse the discussion.
It is obvious that the universe exists as it is because thats the way it is. This is stating basic truth. It doesnt accomplish much in the task at hand.

As you listed,

This universe might be the latest incarnation of a 'pulsating' universe, in which stuffs expands from the initial explosion, and then reach a point where everything falls back in on itself, and creates a massive black hole which then explodes again, forming the next universe. In which case the universe is ageless, and the question of a beginning or end becomes meaningless.

Thats right it could be any one of these ways. As you said,

It exists as is, because if it was any different, we, the observers, wouldn't have known any better, and thought that the different way is the way.

And so the same argument can be made that alternative ideas like infinite universe in a foam of infinite universe, are of no use to the subject of discussion, because it is the reference to this universe that is important.

By no means am I trying to suggest a god or a theory or take a side. I am opening up the basic principles of observation. It is up to the readers and participants in this topic to make up there beliefs and opinions on their own. The actual posting is for notes, text, evidence, and logic on the subjects.

back to this quote again.

This universe might be the latest incarnation of a 'pulsating' universe, in which stuffs expands from the initial explosion, and then reach a point where everything falls back in on itself, and creates a massive black hole which then explodes again, forming the next universe. In which case the universe is ageless, and the question of a beginning or end becomes meaningless.

This is like the big bang theory that pulsates. I am pointing out that due to scientific study, this is from what I have been informed, to be a impossibility. Mass turns into energy, and not all energy is captured. The universes Entropy is very high, 1 billion, according to scientific references, this is saying that its ability to bounce back, or explode back out is not quite possible. Just imagine all that electromagnetic energy that is radiating off and not being absorbed. This is what I was pointing out that we can forget the pulsating idea, of ever lasting universe becuase we know for a fact that the universe loses alot of energy all the time, and eventually if it were to collapse and blow up it would die out. This concept operates on a infinite time line. Forever pulsating. But it is very simple to understand that we can immediatly exclude this thought because it would need to be able to capture itself over and over again wit 100% efficiency or else it wouldnt fit into infinity.

You can logically deduce a God as the instigator of the Universe, but as I have shown above, there are possible forms of the Universe that simply don't need one. We have to determine the form of the universe first before we can infer any supernatural beings to its origins.

I am not refering to a god. I am revieling what is here, now, what is, as you said it.
Your statements in my opinion can be tossed about from either side.
If a person of faith were to say god made the universe, an athiest could imediatly respond by coming up with a idea that doesnt require a god, a foam of infinite universes as it were.
If an athiest tells a person of faith, there is no god, there was a big bang. The person of faith can say, who needs a big bang when there could a foam of infinite universes.

In order to make some headway we have to exclude the concept of trying to disprove or prove a particular belief of faith. On the contrary, we take a belief, or theory, open it up and show with basic principles whether or not its logically correct and worth our brain space.

Big bang theory can NOT work in infinite time line.

If big bang turns out to be Correct, it will have to be considered a creation, this is because of the reasons explained in this post and te previous.

[ughaibu]

If you have a created universe, you can throw out the "intelligence" of design. This planet experiences prolonged droughts and pluvial periods, ice-ages, volcanic explosions and meteor strikes. You wouldn't design such a place as a kennel for your dog or a corral for your horses, would you?

[arkain101]

Let us delve into that area if you would like.

I obviously do no refer to intelligent design as you appear to. I agree I should stick with creation over Intelligent design.

I am not so much concirned with our planet as I am the unfolding of existence in this universal realm when I speak of design.

The universe is a reality that functions with constants and laws, this is commonly understood. If big bang is proved, then it was created, and the next step is to decide how so. Either with amazing intelligence outside space and time or what..

[ughaibu]

Before deciding how, what's your idea about why?

[arkain101]

I don't know if I could attempt to answer such a question.

Maybe you could elaborate on what you mean by why and I will do what I can.

I dont have an answer as to the purpose of existence. Our consciousness, time, matter, energy, all that... Is there a purpose behind it? I don't think a mear human could comprehend why. Although our existence, our consciousness validates everything that is.

If you curious about my beliefs as to why and what I am, like athiest of faith, I am neither in some respects and don't plan on sharing those unrelated (why-reasons) things in this topic.

[ughaibu]

If there is design, there is intention, 'accidental design' is a meaningless phrase. I'm asking how you imagine the intention behind the design and the creation.