Thinking about intelligent design(what Quran says?)

[phoenixbyrd]

Point taken, people do like twisting things. So I took it upon myself to look up one of the quotes and it's really not all that different. Using the Shakir transtlation 4:91

SHAKIR: You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority.

And 4:89


SHAKIR: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

Both are very similar in context yet different in wording. For someone such as myself, how exactly am I to take such a message? How should I react to such things? Those two quote's are from the accepted shakir translation, both commanding to kill non-believers. And yet it's a religion that promotes truth and peace?

I've only bothered to look up those two so far. But seeing the message withing the same context as the supposed hate speach, I'm almost unsure as to weather I want to look up the rest and check them out.

[CraigD]

Originally Posted by phoenixbyrd

Point taken, people do like twisting things. So I took it upon myself to look up one of the quotes and it's really not all that different.

I strongly disagree. I found all of the text in the Gisburne video that I checked to be significantly – and, I think, purposefully – different than the Shakir translation.

Taking the two example phoenixbyrd gave:

• 4.91 (Sahkir): You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority.
• 4.91 (Gisburne): If the unbeliever does not offer you peace, kill them wherever you find them. Against such you are given clear warrant.

The first text begins by describing the person to be killed as a non-Muslim who seeks to be “secure from their own people” – in modern terms, a fugitive – by living among Muslims. It calls for such people to be compelled to withdraw in peace – to be expelled from Muslim land. If they refuse, the Quaran instructs Muslims to kill them.

Gisburne’s version of this text omits the qualification of where the person to be killed is, why they are presumed to be there, and any mention of their option to withdraw in peace without being killed. The impression I am left with from reading only Gisburne’s version is the Quran gives Muslims license to travel to wherever non-Muslims live, even if among “their own people” (such as the US) and kill them.

• 4.89 (Sahkir): They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
• 4.89 Gisburne: Have no unbeliever friends. Kill the unbeliever wherever you find them

The first text explains why Muslims should not be friends with non-Muslims (because non-Muslims desire Muslims to stop believing in their religious tenets) and, much like 4.91, says that they should be driven from their homes (and, presumably, completely from Muslim lands). If they turn back – refuse to leave – the Quaran instructs Muslims to kill them.

Again, Gisburne shortens, recapitalizes, and re-punctuates to imply that 4.89 instructs Muslims to seek out and kill non-Muslims anywhere, even lands that are not Muslim.

From my limited reading of its translations, the impression I have of the Quran is that it clearly speaks against the idea of Muslims and non-Muslims living in the same countries, and demands the violent expulsion of all people who are not or will not convert to Muslim from Muslim countries. This is a disturbing message, much like various passages from the Old Testament of the Bible which are widely regarded as historic descriptions, not prescriptions from present-day behavior (eg: Exodus 22:18 (KJV): “Thou shalt not suffer [allow] a witch to live.”) However, Grisburne and others appear to me to be attempting to purpusfully distort the Quaran’s message of segregation and isolation into one of unbridled, murderous aggression. I suspect that they do so either to provoke aggression against relatively small, predominantly Muslim nations in the Middle East by much larger and more powerful, predominantly Christians nations in America and Europe. Such provocation is, in my opinion, counter to the best interests of human beings of all nationalities and religions.

[phoenixbyrd]

* 4.91 (Sahkir): You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority.
* 4.91 (Gisburne): If the unbeliever does not offer you peace, kill them wherever you find them. Against such you are given clear warrant.

The first text begins by describing the person to be killed as a non-Muslim who seeks to be “secure from their own people” – in modern terms, a fugitive – by living among Muslims. It calls for such people to be compelled to withdraw in peace – to be expelled from Muslim land. If they refuse, the Quaran instructs Muslims to kill them.

I'm unsure as to how you gleaned that the first text from shakir translates to 'in muslim land'. From what I read it says wherever you find them. I'm not an authority on the Quran or its... supposed peacfull messages, but when I see passages calling out for the murder of non believers, then it raise abit of alarm for me. Any religious doctirine that commands one to murder another, even if it's in just muslim land only is not a religion of peace. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

[Michaelangelica]

[quote=Emre_1974tr;124766]Examples from Quran ...........

17. Do they not look at the Camels, how they are made?-

Two models, one hump or two.

4. We have indeed created man in the best of moulds,

Penicillin?

8. And created you in pairs,
6. He created you (all) from a single person: then created, of like nature, his mate;

Most of us, but not all. Some even get to choose what permutation they would like.

14. And do We not send down from the clouds water in abundance,

bit light on, in the middle east and Oz

15. That We may produce therewith corn and vegetables,

"Corn" ? Now I get it. So was God or Allah an American!

77. Doth not man see that it is We Who created him from sperm? Yet behold! he (stands forth) as an open adversary!
5. O mankind! if ye have a doubt about the Resurrection, (consider) that We created you out of dust, then out of sperm, then out of a leech-like clot,

He could brush up a bit on his 101 biology class.
-
Is the Koran available in English?
I would like to read it one day
Seems the prophet repeats himself a lot.
Are those the best bits?
So do you believe in Intelligent design or not?

[Emre_1974tr]

Dear Friend;

English Quran

ENGLISH QURAN A. YUSUF ALİ / Kuran.gen.tr, Kuran, Kur'an, Kuran-i Kerim, kuranikerim, Quran, qur'an, Al qur'an, Quran, holyquran, holy, coran, kuruan, koran, corano,koraani, islam, muslim, allah, arabic, türkçe,meal, der heilige Koran, islam, musl

And for intelligent design:

Quran Miracles.

Regards.

[CraigD]

Originally Posted by Michaelangelica

Is the Koran available in English?

Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr

ENGLISH QURAN A. YUSUF ALİ / Kuran.gen.tr, Kuran, Kur'an, Kuran-i Kerim, kuranikerim, Quran, qur'an, Al qur'an, Quran, holyquran, holy, coran, kuruan, koran, corano,koraani, islam, muslim, allah, arabic, türkçe,meal, der heilige Koran, islam, musl

Emre’s linked-to translation seemed a bit over-fancy, and wanted to install an activeX control on my Windows box.

I prefer this text-only one, an 1983 translation by M.H.Shakir. Searches of it are available here.

[Freddy]

The Meaning of the Holy/Glorious Qur'an/Koran is an explanatory Sunni translation of the Qur'an by Marmaduke Pickthall 1936. I have this translation from a 1996 printing.