Creationist survey

[pgrmdave]

are you saying that there is no way to reconcile science with religion? I don't agree with all of the stupid creationist theories that try to ignore science and uphold time-honored crap that scared people need to believe for reassurance, but I do believe that there is a God, and I do believe that science is merely the study of how he engineered this universe.

I can't explain it well, but the best logical argument for a god comes from C.S. Lewis, in Mere Christianity. Even those of you (freethinker) who are steadfast atheists, as I once was, would benefit from reading it. It is short, only a quick one day read, but it is good and should satisfy the most devout atheists.

[alxian]

pgrm dave.. RE: reconciliation of science and religion and faith (don't forget faith)

one aims to free the people one aims to control the people and one cannot be much of anything without faith even if its misguided.

a world of faith
you can have faith without science or religion.. humans must have lived this way for eons as hunters and gatherers then came agriculture and the dude who owned the farm, thus was repartriated the food as was always done from the most fit to the most needy, should there not be enough food harvested someone goes hungry, in a society based on faith the hungry have faith that they'd eventually be fed.. rather than going out and hunting for food.. which they easily could do (i suppose this applies to the early hunters and gatherers who'd just started cultivating in south america/china (?) but i was talking about todays society and the expectation of handouts) (and no.. i'm not calling the average north american a dirt stupid lazy pig dog atheist, that would be wrong, because i know north americans believe very strongly in religion.. god anyway.. and not every american lusts for personal gain). for instance some people have faith in BUSH.. but that was a cheap shot. most bush supporters want peace.. (trully perplexing.. but that kind of explains why they have faith, their faith.. a belief that bush can bring peace to the world, by ignoring the UN (i mean what are they for anyway?),(they are just a stupid puppet show doing very little because they can't allow themselves to do what needs to be done in order to bring about world peace) and doing what needs to be done. (one faith one creed, faith in science under a democratic responsible government where no man has more power or more importance than any other, the total abolishment of the individual while empowering the individual who must in turn sacrifice himself willingly for the good of the whole, the greater good).. wait a sec i might just have faith in bush my self afterall)

a world of religion
lets take the muslims for a second, as far as my culturally limited knowledge of this culture goes they value science as much as religion thus they prosper and have faith in their continued successful future, but they are at war because of their faith.. is it because of their own supremist views? no i believe any form of religion engenders a supremist view and thus any other religion than my own is the devil.. (remember the crusades, and that he earliest christians were jews who were burned by romans (catholics? *sigh) so a world with religion especially when there are so many cannot have peace and is not the ideal either. even with science as a temper religion takes over when the people are concerned .. no nation prides itself for scientific accomplishments before boasting about its main religion as far as i know. you can't really count north america because you'd be acosted in the street if you claimed either the states or canada had only one main religion that was better than any other and should be followed.. i.e. the forced reliquishing of religious faith in minorities is a BAD idea.

a world of science
do i even need to say what absolute horrors of a world of pure scientific hubris? ok so B-movies aside lets give science a chance and add responsible government (i am canadian. w00t) you still run into issues of the exploitation of science that will no doubt corrupt the 'soul'(dna and ability to think about your humanity as something precious) and then eventually would lead to catastrophic destruction of civilization, and trust me you aren't likely to persuad me to join any cults or get me to admit without the use of powerful hypnonsis that the world is flat.. but i will admit the blind pursuit of science without very strict and focused planning is stupid.. oops i just created a virulent retrovirus containing a dna marker thats known to be linked with <add horrible congenital disease here> that normally would be recessive... 'maybe i should have carried the gatcttcag instead of adding atttagggaccc' .. i'm all for science, i believe a heatly respectful approach to science will set us free of religious wars and man on man violence. but as long as you have corrupt gov't a lust for person gain and a society where so many foster such a dark contempt for their fellow man.. no.. a society based pure science is doomed. peeps of atlantis may speak on their own behalf.. oh wait.. nap they cannot. lol

while even the most worthless has faith, the most corrupt will feel it (the pinch of fear hubris comming to bite him in the ass) when the market fluctuates..

also

however well intentioned thepowers that be migth seem to the people, neither science(whoever commissioned the study usually won't publish results if they are not to his liking, especially not if they are spanish, she's a flat etc) nor religion (whoever controls religion controls the people) is ever down with the greater good in mind if it conflicts power. when either is a tool used by those in power both are used to control.

i can't for the life of me understand christianity.. whether its purpose is to grow popuplations to a planet crushing size or what there seems to be something foul and corrupt at the heart of a faith were most of its current offspring wish to be atheist/anarchists or commit suicide or become criminals.. maybe i'm overly critical since i believe christianity lost hold of the reigns of power to gov't when we left england and a monarch.. but then i'd be alienating all of the other faiths that have blended with NA and democracy.. there would have been no other way to control such a varied church than to allow each individual the choice to run around 'free' but unable to do much without stepping on someone elses toes... lol people govern themselves and like the school yard teachers only step in when real trouble starts.. all the while collecting taxes and not teaching them a damn thing to lift them out of their stupor..

thus exploiting what we know for the benefit of the individual seems to be the only solution that will allow at least some of us to achieve true happiness..

[pgrmdave]

Originally Posted by alxian

i believe any form of religion engenders a supremist view and thus any other religion than my own is the devil..

Few religions preach hatred of others, only people preach that. Look at the great spiritual leaders - Jesus, Muhammad, Budda - they all taught similar things. None of them wanted violence, but later, followers of them became violent (except for Buddists, I don't think they ever really fought).

People distort their teachings, wanting to be "right" more than "good". What happens then is interesting, you end up with a devout people devoid of morals. That is when the problems occur, people fail to look back and see what they are doing.

But can religion be held accountable for a person's actions?

No more than television, or video games. Ultimately, people are responsible for their own actions.

Originally Posted by alxian

i can't for the life of me understand christianity.. whether its purpose is to grow popuplations to a planet crushing size or what there seems to be something foul and corrupt at the heart of a faith were most of its current offspring wish to be atheist/anarchists or commit suicide or become criminals

The problem with chrisitianity is more of a problem with the catholic church. More modern churches don't have as much of a problem with this. The problem stems from an unwillingness to accept a changing world. The catholic church is slow to change, which makes them unacceptable to modern people, who are used to things being unstable. More progressive churches are not experiancing nearly as much trouble.


Religion is important culturally and cannot be abandoned, but it must change. Hundreds of years ago, the church supported science, but then it began to have trouble with the information. I believe that once the church again embraces science, we will see the dawning of a new era of acceptance.

[alxian]

Originally Posted by pgrmdave

But can religion be held accountable for a person's actions?
.

yes especially when that religoin has peeps going on crusades..

i meant of course when peeps aren't punished by their religion for their transgressions, they get a frowning and a you're forgiven because its only for god to judge the quick and the dead.

once religion itself is accountable i think i'll sleep snuggly.. which i should have been doing instead of that monster post..

[pgrmdave]

How is blaming religion any different than blaming music, or video games? If someone kills, it isn't because of their religion, although that may be their reasoning. In truth, their religion (most likely) preaches nonviolence, but they choose to focus on an aspect of it that will support their own views.

[Freethinker]

Originally Posted by pgrmdave

are you saying that there is no way to reconcile science with religion?

OK, Tormod enticed me into taking a few moments to jump back in. Seems like a good spot (made for me actually!)

No Science and Religion can NEVER be reconciled. Ever. The two take diametrically opposed directions towards gathering knowledge. Religion basis its dogma on faith and belief. Things that you use for "knowledge" when you lack facts and evidentially supported proofs. Which are of coorse the ONLY things Science uses. Religion makes claims and requires blanket acceptance and adhenrance. Science rejects "claims" and acceptance of ANY of the knowledge base it develops is constantly under review with specific attempts to disprove it with new data. Add to this that the most popular religions are based on written sources of knowledge from at times thousands of years ago. Where any Science "book" is suspect if it is more than a few years old.

Each and every time Science helps us learn something new, it replaces some old dogmatic claim of some religion. Science will continue to allow us to discard the false superstitions each religion is based on one claim at a time. As we go along this process, each religious group attempts to salvage what they can by continuing to grasp desperately to the gaps (in factual science knwoledge) left. At each turn those that pretend to be religious believers, once forced to accept the factual info developed thru science, will lie about what their religion used to teach and pretend their religion had actually accepted, rather than fought, these newly understood facts. The earth is flat, 6000 years old, in the center of the universe and disease is caused by demons. Oh, I guess it's not flat, but it is 6000 years old, the center and demons make you sick. OH? OK, it isn't the center, and we never claimed it was flat, but....

Originally Posted by pgrmdave

I don't agree with all of the stupid creationist theories that try to ignore science and uphold time-honored crap that scared people need to believe for reassurance, but I do believe that there is a God, and I do believe that science is merely the study of how he engineered this universe.

Yes and each of you believers will draw this arbitrary line someplace. Always desperate to find some gap to cling to. Lest you be forced to accept reality completely. There are still the flat earthers. The only difference is where each of you draw the line.

Originally Posted by pgrmdave

I can't explain it well, but the best logical argument for a god comes from C.S. Lewis, in Mere Christianity.

The only REASON you "can't explain it well" is that it lacks REASON.

[Freethinker]

Originally Posted by pgrmdave

Few religions preach hatred of others, only people preach that. Look at the great spiritual leaders - Jesus, Muhammad, Budda - they all taught similar things. None of them wanted violence, but later, followers of them became violent (except for Buddists, I don't think they ever really fought).

I have no idea where you get your facts about religion from, but it is obviously not from the religions themselves. Both the bible and the koran are filled with positively promoted examples of and direct admonissions to hate and kill others. And the people that preach it do so as required by the dogma their sources of revelation require. In fact both have almost the same passage as far as direct instructions to slay or slaughter those that will not accept that religion.

"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me" (Luke 19:27).

"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme." (Surah 2:190-)

Originally Posted by pgrmdave

But can religion be held accountable for a person's actions?

Let's see, they are specifically told by their religion to kill, they do so.... Hmmm, boy that's a tough call!

NOT!

Originally Posted by pgrmdave

The problem with chrisitianity is more of a problem with the catholic church.

Ah yes, once more it's the "other" Christians.... Once more we find that this person is the ONLY Christian and the others just don't get it!

Originally Posted by pgrmdave

Religion is important culturally and cannot be abandoned, but it must change. Hundreds of years ago, the church supported science, but then it began to have trouble with the information. I believe that once the church again embraces science, we will see the dawning of a new era of acceptance.

While I admit that religion is required to explain much of human history. It serves best to explain the attrocities and ignorace. Yes at one time "the church" tried to embrace reason and science. But it became obvious very quickly to church authorities that continuing down this path would eliminate the religion itself and wound up suppressing science and until SECULAR culture forced it to stop, would outright KILL those trying to bring science and reason into human society.

[pgrmdave]

"Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth" - Matthew 5:5

"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God" - Matthew 5:9

"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth, But I tell you, Do not resist and evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." - Matthew 5:38-39

"But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you." Matthew 5:44

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged." Matthew 7:1

"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." Matthew 7:12

"The second (greatest commandment) is this: Love your neighbor as yourself." Mark 12:31

"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven." Mark, 6:37

"The commandments, 'Do not commit adultery,' 'Do not murder,' 'Do not steal,' 'Do not covet,' and whatever other commandments there may be, are summed up in this one rule: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." Romans 13:9-10

And the clincher:

"Thou shalt not murder" Exodus 20:13

I don't know how to correctly quote the koran, but I'll put up some quotes.

"To you be your Way, and to me mine."

"Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice. Allah only forbids you respecting those who made war upon you on account of (your) religion, and drove you forth from your homes and backed up (others) in your expulsion, that you make friends with them, and whoever makes friends with them, these are the unjust."

Okay, so my argument for Islam was weak, but I'm not very familiar with the teachings.

Originally Posted by Freethinker

Let's see, they are specifically told by their religion to kill, they do so.... Hmmm, boy that's a tough call!

Well, what is the difference between a religion that calls for death but repeatedly tells you not to kill, and a song that tells its listeners to kill? Would you hold music accountable for murder?

I must admit that I have problems with the churches, all of them, as institutions. But I don't think that other christians don't get it. There are some, in public places, that seem to be unchristian to me, but I feel that most christians are average people, just like most atheists, no better, no worse.

As for the history of the church, I agree, but you have to be able to allow an institution to change. Holding the current incarnation of the Catholic church responsible for the Spanish inqusition would make no sense. To argue against modern religion by citing past religion is foolish.

[Freethinker]

Originally Posted by pgrmdave

"Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth" - Matthew 5:5
...
Well, what is the difference between a religion that calls for death but repeatedly tells you not to kill, and a song that tells its listeners to kill? Would you hold music accountable for murder?

Contratulations. You walked right into it.

Yes the bible (and koran) are filled with contradictions. But that does not in any way lesson the FACT that the bible (and koran) are filled with positive examples and direct promotion of hate and killing. It just means that it will support whichever action you want to take.

But further, the bible has MORE emphysis on negative tenets than positive ones. Just because SOME Christians ignore it does not change the FACTS!

Now if you really don;t comprehend the difference between a claimed source of divine revelation which states you will be punished for eternity if you do not follow it and a song, you are in bad shape my friend!

But that would explain your ability to acccept the bible selectively while pretending the other more than half is not there.

Thanks again for helping me prove it.

[Freethinker]

Originally Posted by pgrmdave

As for the history of the church, I agree, but you have to be able to allow an institution to change. Holding the current incarnation of the Catholic church responsible for the Spanish inqusition would make no sense. To argue against modern religion by citing past religion is foolish.

Again we see exactly why religion and specifically Christianity is so harmful to society and people's thought process.

THis particular angle of biblical discussion was started in response to the promotion of the bible as THE source of Revelation to follow. And the Catholic Church certainly did it very effectively. To try and pretend that by LEAVING the teachings of the bible, the Catholic Church is MORE Christian is absurd and typical revisionist.

YEs it IS because of the historically correct implementation of Christianty that we can argue against CLAIMS of "modern religion". Just because YOU choose to ignore the other parts does not mean everyone does. And as long as you provide salient support for the bible, ALL sides will use that as support for ALL sides of it.