[Tormod]

Here is a pretty cool example of how not to put together a survey.

Science & Religion Survey
http://michaelacorey.com/cgi-bin/survey/survey.cgi

It is a Creationist quiz in disguise. Notice how it is impossibe to complete it if you do not think miracles are real (because you can't answer question number 6 without accepting that you believe in miracles).

Some of the questions are so blindingly obvious in how they show you what sort of answer they want.

But anyway - try it and check the results (just ignore question 6). It turns out the site author has less support than he must be hoping for.

[Stargazer]

If your life depended on it, would you say that God exists?
If my life depended on it, of course I would say it. I wouldn't believe it - which I think is what he actually means. So I said "No," just because I think he means "would you believe in god."

Is there any logical reason for being hopeful in today's increasingly "hopeless" world?
Yes, I believe so. Obviously it's not easy, with all the people running around working towards making this world worse than it already is.

Do you think the horror of the September 11 terrorist attacks against the United States can be counteracted by belief in God?
No. Also keep in mind that it was carried out by some of the most fanatical believers. To counteract fundamentalism with another brand of it is not too smart.

Can the fact of evil possibly be reconciled with the existence of a perfectly good and all-powerful Deity?
In short: No.

Do you believe miracles are real?
A miracle doesn't have to be caused by divine intervention and so on; according to Webster online it can simply be an extremely outstanding or unusual event. But since I know what he means by "miracle," I had to say "No."

If you do believe miracles are real, do you think miracles can be reconciled with the hard core facts of modern science?
With the definition I suppose he's using, then no.

Do you think the founding fathers of modern science believed in a Creator?
Yes. Isaac Newton was also interested in alchemy if I remember correctly. Galileo Galilei supposedly said that a god wouldn't want to stop humans from doing scientific research (as the church suggested during that time).

Do you think the Big Bang theory of the universe has anything to do with the activity of a Divine Being?
The theory? Of course not. The event itself? There's always the possibility, but still, no.

Do you think that the concept of evolution necessarily contradicts, or otherwise conflicts with, the theological concept of creation?
No. After all, it's perfectly possible to invent a new religion that embraces the theory of evolution as part of their mythology. That doesn't make that particular religion true, though.

Do you think it is possible for evolution and creation to BOTH be valid simultaneously?
Yes, it depends on exactly how this creation happened.

Do you believe there could be a major cover-up in modern science as far as empirical evidence for the existence of God is concerned?
No.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: Stargazer
Is there any logical reason for being hopeful in today's increasingly "hopeless" world?

Boy I caught a lot of shit the last time I discussed this!

But there is an obvious connection between the Christian POV, esp the more Fundy/ Creationist's and a very pessimistic view of life.

[Tormod]

FT, it seems you will soon have your own congregation here.

[Freethinker]

Do I get to pass the collection plate?

Or at least take my property off of the tax rolls and not pay taxes on my income?

As long as I promise to not marry two guys and a dog together?

[Stargazer]

Originally posted by: Freethinker

Boy I caught a lot of shit the last time I discussed this!

But there is an obvious connection between the Christian POV, esp the more Fundy/ Creationist's and a very pessimistic view of life.

I'm not sure what you mean, but I guess I can see a connection too. It seems to them that if their beliefs are wrong, then life has no meaning. It does seem sad that only a religious belief (no matter if it's not true) can give meaning to life, which seems to suggest that we lived meaningless lives until christianity came along.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: Stargazer
It seems to them that if their beliefs are wrong, then life has no meaning. It does seem sad that only a religious belief (no matter if it's not true) can give meaning to life, which seems to suggest that we lived meaningless lives until christianity came along.

It goes beyond this. There seems to be a direct, inversly proportional relationship between Christian religious belief and the person's view of the current moral tone and direction of the world.

Those I meet that have a positive outlook (even after the 2nd stolen election) in general and a philosophy of humans being able to make positive decisions themselves tend to be less religious.

Those that express deep concern with the shape the world is in and it's continued decline are almost always more Fundy Christian.

I made that specific observation here when a newer member made a few comments about how relatively bad things are. Even though I was 100% on target, it was not appreciated.

[Tim_Lou]

Christian=hope?

yeah, for the poor people! (got some nice food in the church)
but not for the rich!

(dont mean any offend, i dont mean that christian is bad...its neither good nor bad.)

[Tim_Lou]

"in general and a philosophy of humans being able to make positive decisions themselves tend to be less religious."

what do you mean?
less religious people tend to be more positive?
or positive people do not tend to be religious?

one can argue that people with negative attutide tend to be in religion to seek help, while people with positive attutide do not need a religion at all.

overall, i think that religion is a trait of us, we have the tendency to gather people with similar attitude and beliefs. humans tend to create agreements and to share knowledge. not only is religion a form of this unity, so are music, arts, languages, math concepts...

almost all civilization have some form of religions, it is a way to share idea, to express and drive emotion, and to unite a group of people.
it is similar to the concept of nationalism.

[alxian]

Be it and end all?

read my last one?.. thank you.. 12k=long read.

ID is bunk, the universe is ancient and far more vast (supposedly infinite) than we can/will ever comprehend.

given that the universe is relatively homogeneous, all the necessary chemicals for life exist everywhere, whether or not they exist in ideal conditions and sufficient quantities is also no longer to be debated since science keeps expanding the limits of life to the point where only the most toxic environment designed by man himself do not support at least the simplest forms of life. i.e. animals immune to UV gamma x-ray.. basically radiation and the lack of the most basic elements is lethal to life.. i'd like to believe there are creatures out there that feed on radioactive isotopes. maybe as with most impossible creatures they'll be discovered to be extant here on earth right under our noses.

also there is metal in abundance in the universe. this alone is proof enough for me of the incalculable age of the universe but more importantly our own little corner of it, stars have to live and die for unimaginable lengths of time to create tangible amounts of metal (i exaggerate for levity) given that there is so much metal everywhere one should realize it had to have come from somewhere and took a very long time to create within stars and billions of years for our known supply. but definitely more than a week i bet. and probably even more complex elements and processes that we have not yet discovered and thus don't understand cannot understand at this time (the acceleration of the universe or at least our visible nook of it, and the inner workings of the atom and the oddness of the quantum scale and beyond). i mean we know so much already about our local universe but much of it is still incomprehensible by 'modern' science in time we will understand and master them and we'll become as powerful as the creators so many of us already so blithely attribute the existence and the origins of life to (i wonder if ID has balls enough to admit that the universe and other planets were never mentioned in the bible because they have always been there, god/the creator only made earth not heaven as in the stars but heaven as in the atmosphere.. (if you examine pre Christian mythology aliens and similar concepts account for much of the evolution in culture and knowledge and if some of the myths are to be believed man himself was actually constructed as a slave to these supreme beings.. they weren't ethereal gods/angels/energy beings (from another dimension), they were simply very advanced life forms looking for scarce elements they required if only symbolically for the purposes of ritual or whatever but enough to have come to earth to seek it out (gold is the element that most commonly seduced these alien Spaniards)

i wonder why there hasn't been a movie made to glorify the planet x nemesis myths, about the Anasazi, snake people, the missing American copper, basic myths that anyone curious enough would have read about on the net independently or absorbed from watching way too many discovery channel documentaries...

the governments of the world don't which for their sheep to know why ancient civilizations suddenly began to worshiped gods? (at about the time ID swears creation began, i wonder if Jewish people support ID?) because to them the gods not only existed but did come to earth and aren't very far away (relatively).. supposedly they live in hibernation on a missing planet that takes thousands of years to make an orbit and come close enough to the sun for any meaningful interactions to occur.. interactions like the rise and fall of civilization.. (allowing for their culture to benefit from the evolution of humanity here on the highly volatile earth, while they slumber, we evolve, they come periodically and absorbed they pillage and leave again to slumber but with the promise to return.. lets assume that the myth of man being on earth for a very long time, much long that the still extant fossils (those that haven't been erased purposely or destroyed by nature) we dig up will attest too is true.. if man evolved over and over but earth with her ice ages and furious natural disasters kept wiping us out, such an interchange with an alien species is very possible, what if they decided to interbreed.. creating man from whatever animal amused them and/or out of their sheer genetic brilliance.. Neanderthal and no doubt dozens of other would be human like species no doubt could not compete against a genetic super animal such as ourselves.... remember its a myth though, and science up until the current popularity of ID has been politely urged to ignore god and research hard fact...

but the fact is ancient civilizations did rise and fall seemingly without any apparent catalyst, as well there is a Kuiper belt object screwing up stuff outside of the orbit of Pluto, until either it comes in or we go out we won't know for sure what it is (some say its sols binary sibling (a failed star probably more star than Jupiter but not star enough to emit light enough for us to see it with all the solar glare..) also some say planet a huge one (not just for a Kuiper belt object but huge like Jupiter huge.. (ancients says its responsible for the moon and earths pacific deformation.. while others say its also to be held accountable for the asteroid belt (which if ever Microsoft decides to claim ownership of mars and become a mining concern thus getting humans economically closer to the belt... if it can be proven that the asteroid belt was one planet (victim of the first hit and run...) smashed to smithereens during the settling of the planets into there current orbits.. well some more of the ancient myths will be validated, never the less the fact is that something is out there in the Kuiper belt and ancient cultures gave it names and worshiped it plotted its orbits and would have if they were still i power now still be anticipating its return (maybe where Christianity stole the idea of Christ’s return. which BTW was scheduled for a few years ago and never happened.. wait does that mean everyone was wrong? not really the next and most decisive date carved in stone i believe is next may.. don't plan anything for next summer.. lol but i think we'd have seen a planet the size of Jupiter by now if it was only months away from re-entering sols domain..).

do i digress? nah..

(if god created the universe AND earth)
i mean how stupid would the creator be for creating an infinite supply of raw ingredients only to create one planet to make life (life coincidentally that they would have us believe has only existed for a few tens of thousands of years (disputing revolution till they are blue in the face ignoring all life forms that exhibit irrefutably the process of environmental adaptations.. evolution, Darwin’s Madagascar..) 'like one and a small fraction'x10k years. with that perspective the math just doesn't make sense why an Everest worth of raw materials to build a cake called earth which in that example is so tiny it belongs in the quantum scale, so the is no real measure (again i exaggerate.. but this time i should have said Everest is the universe earth is so far beyond quantum it virtually wouldn't exist at all.. but again i digress and thank you for still reading on).. telescopes are tools of the devils they'd say, they don't function as you think they do.. the universe is far smaller than science would have you believe... uh huh sure i still don't buy it (ID).

metals have been scientifically proven to have originated inside massive objects like stars and planets... fact

everything in existence was created 10 thousand or something like that years ago. like the bible lets assume 10 thousand is not a valid metric. still nope.. metals would suggest billions, and then more mathematically correct billions of billions and then some of years of stellar evolution. we view but a fraction of the whole (which is infinite and homogenous and expanding until further notice). mind bender.. is it expanding or are we just becoming more and more aware of its complexity? lets assume that the barrier we have limiting our view to a few billion light years (15 or so) is the real edge of the universe (its not this is an example.. and lets assume that the further back in history you go the less complex the universe would seem.. given a scale, at some point people must have thought that the earth would have been the center of the universe.. it was the universe.. given that innate inescapable logic of course science would say that the universe must have a center and of course as we see further and further away the further and further away everything seems to be from that center.. add a little universal redshift and people think the universe is moving away.. ever thought maybe the earth might be imploding? lol.. i don't mean to deride honest irrefutable scientific theory but aren't there other explanations for near universal redshift than everything is accelerating away from everything else? wouldn't that equate to gravity being a push or something like that?? no.. all it means is that either the local big bang event is still pushing stuff away (not answering the acceleration) or something like gravity outside of our field of view is pulling this away.. what could cause that? if the universe is matter and whatever was around before the big bang was anti matter if ubiquitous anti matter preceded the big matter creating bang event then at some point all matter will be annihilated by colliding the with anti matter all the big bang wave front.. which would now be outside of our field of vision.. and perhaps since opposites attract this anti matter boundary may be suck matter in.. who knows but even if they knew how could they prove it?

unless god/the creator(s) was/were omnipotent it is impossible for ID to ignore that metals had to come from somewhere.. how vast is the universe beyond our field of vision? and what is beyond that current limit? infinite anti matter?. even ID can't answer that, they'll just say nothing or ask god.. or something vague like that... isn't it even just a little bit possible that life was not born here (earth)/life does exist everywhere but everywhere is such a big place that we'll probably never meet our neighbors in tau ceti.. in the same way metal was not created by god and is also ancient and everywhere.. ID is just far too simple to explain much of anything at all but surprisingly enough people are willing to swallow this ultra shallow post Christian ideal since it is so simple it must be true.. anything more complex is a tool of the devil to corrupt the one faith in the one true god. whoever that my be given the patchwork quilt of nature of the Christian faith god could be anybody..

yes they'll say god made it all. in one week some ten thousand years ago. and how fantastic he is but there is just far too much evidence to show that even conventional science is wrong in some of the fundamental things like the big crunch which is now universal expansion, that atom being the smallest possible particle which is now vibrating string theory and probably something even more exotic if a string can be isolated and strung and unraveled ..lol and maybe it will be proven that the big bang itself (essentially a creationist event that started it all) turns out to be a local spatial event still observable today that’s part of an even more grandiose model of the universe where masses as great as the observable universe can crunch and expand and when they do look out because the explosions that occur are pretty friggin big.

with this view.. one where the universe is exponentially older than science can prove without a doubt.. with accurate metrics.. and that the chemistry for life exists everywhere and no doubt in very conducive conditions, conditions that would allow for the evolution of super civilizations able to travel through interstellar space, in a fair fraction of the infinite that is the universe outside of what we can see....

i would believe two things, (neither of which is as simple as ID

the big bang was just a local explosion of an object so incredibly massive that time and space etc were so warped in its vicinity that as it exploded (from some unknown internal catalyst/process) space and time (achieved normalcy?) (balanced out with everything outside of its influence?) (dark or anti matter?) as we now very late in the event can observe it doesn't really compute with the nearly infinitesimal size all that matter must have been packed into.. or whatever

and two that given the amount of metal science would have us believe is everywhere that not only is the universe far older than we can even imagine, but seeing how homogeneous everything seems to be that the accelerating expansion implies that there are forces (natural ones not divine), that are as ubiquitous and fundamental in the universe as atoms and galaxies and perhaps other life forms, but that just go way over our heads.. at least for now...