Religious Slavery

[Dyothelite]

Without going too far off topic here I'll say this..... Jewish law is meant to be crutinized and changed over time. It is done in Judaism to the day by Rabbis since the beginning. In fact there are a greater number of Rabbinnic commentaries on Holy Texts than Holy Texts themselves. Jesus was one of the first to say...."Remember when you read this in the Torah (Bible)? Well it was wrong!" Examples: Eye for an eye, or stonng a sinner for adultery.. etc etc. Just because it says it in the Bible doesn't mean its set in stone. Just ask Jesus... besides like I said, fundamentalism is what starts wars and bigotry.

In regards to the notion of slavery in the Bible, I would say this.... just like Jesus was the first to advocate change in Hebrew law due to changes in society, I think he would equally advocate changes in Hebrew law as society continued to change. Tjhink about it.... when he was asked to judghe the adultress and he replied,"he who is without sin cast the first stone.' ? Do think if he was alive today he'd even consider such a horrific punishment at all for infidelity? No way, but in the time he had to convince people of the most simple things.

[awe1235]

Straying into the realm of Law as such is premature. Forgive the souls and enjoy the story.

[Southtown]

Originally Posted by Spiked Blood

In many instances the bible condones slavery(among other very vile things). How can you maintain the bible is gods word when it contains such brutal violations of humanity?

It's a different kind of slavery. First, Jews didn't consider themselves above certain human beings based on race. It was Hebrews owning Hebrews. Second, it was a different economy. You couldn't buy food at the grocery store; you had to buy from people. And if you didn't have money because you don't own any flocks, you had to go into debt. Going into debt meant you had to work out your debt. We work for money so we can buy necessities. Hebrews either produced their own necessities or they worked for room and board.

Originally Posted by Freddy

I Googled (Bible slavery beating) and instantly found this.

"When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property." (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

That verse implies that if the slave lives for at least a day or two, his death might not have been caused by his owner. Consider the phrases "thou shalt not kill" and "eye for an eye". These can both be reconciled with the slave scenario unless you automatically assume guilt, even though the slave "continued" (or stood) for days afterward.

Also, the slave might be justly beaten if he refuses to work for his debt or his room and board. It's all meant to prevent freeloaders, something we have quite a problem with here in America.

Originally Posted by Edella

Regardless of context,slavery ignores fundamental human rights.The fact that nowhere does the God of the bible explicitly denounce slavery as wrong is an unacceptable omission. For an all loving God to omit the fundamental right to be free in His Moral Law is truly mind-boggling.

Again, do you raise your own meat and vegetables? Or do you have to work for them?

Originally Posted by Edella

....including ridiculously precise details about how to build the tabernacle, how to clothe the priests, how to butcher animals for sacrifice and how to burn incense to him...

It's all prophetic.

"For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, 'See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.' " -- Hebrews 8:4-5 nkjv

"It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience...Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these." -- Hebrews 9:9,23 nkjv

"For the law having a shadow of the good things to come, not the very image of the things, can never with the same sacrifices year by year, which they offer continually, make perfect them that draw nigh." -- Hebrews 10:1 nkjv

"So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ." -- Colossians 2:16-17 nkjv

Originally Posted by Dyothelite

Without going too far off topic here I'll say this..... Jewish law is meant to be crutinized and changed over time. It is done in Judaism to the day by Rabbis since the beginning. In fact there are a greater number of Rabbinnic commentaries on Holy Texts than Holy Texts themselves. Jesus was one of the first to say...."Remember when you read this in the Torah (Bible)? Well it was wrong!" Examples: Eye for an eye, or stonng a sinner for adultery.. etc etc. Just because it says it in the Bible doesn't mean its set in stone.

First, you incorrectly quote the Messiah.

Second, just as the Rabbis were evolving Judaism, Jesus was devolving it. Back to the basics, so-to-speak.

"Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying, 'Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.' He answered and said to them, 'Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?' " -- Matthew 15:1-3 nkjv

For further reading see Washing the Hands and the wikis: Talmud and Karaite Judaism. (Notice "washing the hands" does not quote the Torah.)

Regarding the Sermon on the Mount, when the Torah says "eye for an eye" it was talking to leaders. It was not meant for citizens to pass judgement and sentences on each other. The "eye for an eye" concept was meant for Moses and his heirarchy of delegates who were tasked with the assigning of guilt according to the Torah (such as slave-beating.)

Jesus, on the other hand, was clarifying how people should treat each other day to day. Jews had confused Levitical procedures for governing a society with everyday moral interaction, much as we are now in this thread.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by Southtown

It's a different kind of slavery. First, Jews didn't consider themselves above certain human beings based on race. It was Hebrews owning Hebrews. Second, it was a different economy. You couldn't buy food at the grocery store; you had to buy from people. And if you didn't have money because you don't own any flocks, you had to go into debt. Going into debt meant you had to work out your debt. We work for money so we can buy necessities. Hebrews either produced their own necessities or they worked for room and board.


That verse implies that if the slave lives for at least a day or two, his death might not have been caused by his owner. Consider the phrases "thou shalt not kill" and "eye for an eye". These can both be reconciled with the slave scenario unless you automatically assume guilt, even though the slave "continued" (or stood) for days afterward.

Also, the slave might be justly beaten if he refuses to work for his debt or his room and board. It's all meant to prevent freeloaders, something we have quite a problem with here in America.

Just in case you think the God of Israel did not condone slavery then check out this site.
http://godisimaginary.com/i13.htm

[maikeru]

You are very knowledgeable about Jewish history and Judaism. This is a really interesting thread, dealing with some troublesome and perennial topics. Anyway, I'll sit down again and watch and learn. Ignore my interruption of the conversation.

[Southtown]

Originally Posted by Freddy

Just in case you think the God of Israel did not condone slavery then check out this site.
http://godisimaginary.com/i13.htm

Just in case you think I said God does not condone slavery, I said it was more like being employed than being (racially) inferior. They worked for livelyhood and to pay off debts (because it's the right thing to do.)

For more info see the Year of Jubilee (Biblical).

"...and the emancipation of all Hebrew indentured servants whose term of six years is unexpired or who refuse to leave their masters when such term of service has expired (Gen. 18:6)." -- Wikipedia, Jubilee (Biblical), pp. 5

[Edella]

Originally Posted by Southtown

Again, do you raise your own meat and vegetables? Or do you have to work for them?

I'm not sure I understand, Southtown. No one owns me.I (unlike a slave) can quit any job I have. Just about everyone needs to work to acquire the necessities of life.I don't think you're saying we are all slaves to the system or our employers,and only farmers are truly free. Could you clarify?

Originally Posted by Southtown

Also, the slave might be justly beaten if he refuses to work for his debt or his room and board. It's all meant to prevent freeloaders, something we have quite a problem with here in America.

Surely you're not suggesting that this is a proper way to deal with freeloaders,and that only freeloaders and those in debt were slaves?

[Southtown]

Originally Posted by Edella

I'm not sure I understand, Southtown. No one owns me.I (unlike a slave) can quit any job I have. Just about everyone needs to work to acquire the necessities of life.I don't think you're saying we are all slaves to the system or our employers,and only farmers are truly free. Could you clarify?

Well, they didn't have welfare or unemployment benefits. So if they ran away, they went hungry. It was a fairly similar situation.

Originally Posted by Edella

Surely you're not suggesting that this is a proper way to deal with freeloaders,and that only freeloaders and those in debt were slaves?

Well, if you don't pay on your credit cards, they can freeze your accounts, garnish your wages, reposses items. And beware the IRS! I think I'd rather be beaten. =P

[Dyothelite]

Originally Posted by awe1235

Straying into the realm of Law as such is premature. Forgive the souls and enjoy the story.

Green Triangle Project

[awe1235]

...sayin', extend your pity to the mistaken.