Biotheology

[Turtle]

Another quote from the science article I linked to in post #9:

Mystical Misfirings
Scientists and scholars have long speculated that religious feeling can be tied to a specific place in the brain. In 1892 textbooks on mental illness noted a link between “religious emotionalism” and epilepsy. Nearly a century later, in 1975, neurologist Norman Geschwind of the Boston Veterans Administration Hospital first clinically described a form of epilepsy in which seizures originate as electrical misfirings within the temporal lobes, large sections of the brain that sit over the ears. Epileptics who have this form of the disorder often report intense religious experiences, leading Geschwind and others, such as neuropsychiatrist David Bear of Vanderbilt University, to speculate that localized electrical storms in the brain’s temporal lobe might sometimes underlie an obsession with religious or moral issues. ...

Searching for God in the Brain: Scientific American

So if this scientific view is correct, that is that strong religious experience is an artifact of the brain's structure, then it must serve, or have served, some evolutionary purpose. Since science also informs us on the dubious nature of religious beliefs/practices-talking in tongues for example- then how should the scientist & freethinkers address the myriad religious claims that contradict the science, and more to the point how to fairly interact with those who have these overly religious behaving brains?

I don't know the answers, but I think these are the questions.

[freeztar]

I don't think it's as simple as that. What about cultural influence?

Nature vs. Nurture is really kind of silly. The "vs." should be replaced with "and", imho.

[Turtle]

Originally Posted by freeztar

I don't think it's as simple as that. What about cultural influence?

Nature vs. Nurture is really kind of silly. The "vs." should be replaced with "and", imho.

I expect that is taken into account in the studies so far conducted. I'll do some looking if you don't beat me to it.

Simple? No. Nevertheless many things about the brain's hardwired functions are cross cultural. For example Noam Chomski's study of language in children reveals that all babies, regardless of culture or parentage, coo & babble in exactly the same way. Again, if you don't beat me to references on this I will return to it.

Looking at other brain structure studies oriented to behavior extremes such as criminal behavior demonstrate just how powerful an influence it is. Yes there are all manner of other influences but it is a matter of predisposition in regard to the hardwired structure. For a different body structural consideration think "white men can't jump", and add "no matter how hard they train."

I find it interesting that for as long as this thread has been here that neither 'side' has the taste for it. I presume the believers don't like it because it suggests that a proper real-time brainscan while they pray would demonstrate a brain activity pattern previously identified by the the bio-theologists as 'highly religious' or some such categorization. Bummer.

For the believer haters, if they allow that the believers literally can't help themselves then their beating up on them for their beliefs looks like what it is; simple bullying and cruelty. Quite possibly both extremes have some manner of structure that predisposes them. Bummer.

[pamela]

hi Turtle,
How about a point of view from some one who takes the middle road: neither being to the left nor right in believer or non.
My son has a history of seizures although non epileptic in origin. Last year, after a lengthy convulsive seizure, something odd occured. He would pray constantly. Now, let me preface with this. As far as belief systems go, I have not produced "little Pams", my children's beliefs are there own-I have produced individual thinkers. Often times, there are some really interesting debates going on in this home.I applaud their individuality, and reserve the right to think differently.
Now as far as the excessive praying. Literally, after every time he spoke about anything, it was followed with a short prayer.Even to the extreme, that if he forgot to say "good morning" to God, would send him into a 30 minute "forgiveness" prayer. It became unnerving and was presenting problems at school as well. He was not loud, but it was incessant chatter and quite disruptive. I finally convinced him to pray silently(and for me as well-considering my sanity was in question now ) and this worked.This finally came to a halt with his next seizure.
Now the after effects have presented quite differently. He thinks deeply about the simplest things. He will ponder the clouds and give me an explanation about what they are and how they were formed. And the funny thing is, he is correct and had not ever read anything about them nor saw programming either, to the best of my knowledge. Apparently, a different part of the brain has been stimulated now, and much more easily tolerated by mom, infact, mom is groovin on this part!
Now, I have not read this guy's book, but I have to wonder if indeed there is something in the brain that does stimulate a religious response in a person. In my son's case, the response had not been there before and has not been back since, although, he does maintain his same beliefs and does pray when he feels the need. He has not had a seizure now for quite sometime, and I hope that no more will occur. But I have to wonder, what the next seizure will bring........

[Turtle]

Originally Posted by pamela

hi Turtle,
How about a point of view from some one who takes the middle road: neither being to the left nor right in believer or non.

Roger that. Activating free thinking brain centers.

Originally Posted by Pam

Now, I have not read this guy's book, but I have to wonder if indeed there is something in the brain that does stimulate a religious response in a person. In my son's case, the response had not been there before and has not been back since, although, he does maintain his same beliefs and does pray when he feels the need. He has not had a seizure now for quite sometime, and I hope that no more will occur. But I have to wonder, what the next seizure will bring........

I haven't read Alpers God Part of the Brain either, rather I heard him in a 3 hour radio program. What is new (and I think key) to getting at the religious experience & brain function is the use of real-time brain imaging in control settings and developing an archive of categorized patterns.

Before positng this, I did a quick Google for "neurotheology" and found a couple sources new to me. :reading:

Are humans hard-wired for faith? - CNN.com

Originally Posted by A. Chris Gajilan

"I've meditated and gone to another place I can't describe. Hours felt like mere minutes. It was an indescribable feeling of peace," recalled a CNN colleague.

"I've spoken in languages I've never learned. It was God speaking through me," confided a relative.

The accounts of intense religious and spiritual experiences are topics of fascination for people around the world. It's a mere glimpse into someone's faith and belief system. It's a hint at a person's intense connection with God, an omniscient being or higher plane. Most people would agree the experience of faith is immeasurable.

Dr. Andrew Newberg, neuroscientist and author of "Why We Believe What We Believe," wants to change all that. He's working on ways to track how the human brain processes religion and spirituality. It's all part of new field called neurotheology. ...

Johns Hopkins University Press | Books | The Soul in the Brain

Originally Posted by Review

In this provocative study, Michael R. Trimble, M.D., tackles the interrelationship between brain function, language, art—especially music and poetry—and religion. By examining the breakdown of language in several neuropsychiatric disorders, neuroscientists have identified brain circuits that are involved with metaphor, poetry, music, and religious experiences. Drawing on this body of evidence, Trimble argues that religious experiences and beliefs are explicable biologically and relate to brain function, especially of the nondominant hemisphere. ...

[pamela]

hmmmnn....I wonder, if this part is actually just the place for higher consciousness. Religion, having been fed into memory, is pulled to the forefront, hence these experiences occur. I find it difficult to accept that we are wired to religion, this should be a choice and not a predetermined biological function.

[Turtle]

Originally Posted by pamela

hmmmnn....I wonder, if this part is actually just the place for higher consciousness. Religion, having been fed into memory, is pulled to the forefront, hence these experiences occur. I find it difficult to accept that we are wired to religion, this should be a choice and not a predetermined biological function.

Well, I did not list a source near the top of my search that takes the view that neurotheology is bunk because spiritual awareness is an experience of an higher reality. As I earlier referred to Noam Chomski's work on how we are hard-wired for language, it is after having read some of his work in detal that I have no such difficulty as have you, with the idea of neuro/bio-theology as a legitimate hypothesis. That said, I expect the predisposition to either extreme of 'religious' or 'spiritual', or whatever-name-one-cares-to-apply experience - as well as the middle - fits some well described statistical distribution.

Here's the link to that opposing view I mentioned: >>

Mindful Hack: "Neurotheology": Bad neurology and bad theology?

Originally Posted by Denyse O'Leary

Yuh. Mario and I discussed a number of these schemes in The Spiritual Brain, and they all have one thing in common: They aim to explain religious experiences away rather than explain them.

It is as if someone were to explain Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel in terms of infighting at the Vatican. If infighting at the Vatican in those days explained the Sistine, no one would bother with it now.

Coles also talks about another favourite subject - the apparently sudden emergence of human consciousness, especially as expressed in art, literature, music, and spirituality: ...

[pamela]

well now that you put it that way...
I can accept the "whatever" as being applicable here, based upon a higher reality. This has peaked my curiosity and I will investigate further and of course , let you know my thoughts.

[Galapagos]

Originally Posted by Turtle

I expect that is taken into account in the studies so far conducted. I'll do some looking if you don't beat me to it.

Simple? No. Nevertheless many things about the brain's hardwired functions are cross cultural. For example Noam Chomski's study of language in children reveals that all babies, regardless of culture or parentage, coo & babble in exactly the same way. Again, if you don't beat me to references on this I will return to it.

Looking at other brain structure studies oriented to behavior extremes such as criminal behavior demonstrate just how powerful an influence it is. Yes there are all manner of other influences but it is a matter of predisposition in regard to the hardwired structure. For a different body structural consideration think "white men can't jump", and add "no matter how hard they train."

I find it interesting that for as long as this thread has been here that neither 'side' has the taste for it. I presume the believers don't like it because it suggests that a proper real-time brainscan while they pray would demonstrate a brain activity pattern previously identified by the the bio-theologists as 'highly religious' or some such categorization. Bummer.

I'm partial to the cognitive/evolutionary explanations offered by Boyer and Atran and others in similar camps. They are both anthropologists who study culture and cognition with an evolutionary perspective, in a way similar to how thinkers like Steven Pinker have expanded upon the innate language ideas of Chomski with an evolutionary perspective.

The article in the OP has much interesting information about extreme spiritual experience, but according to Atran(in "In Gods We Trust") these are not the experience of your average religious believer. Most people do not experience seizures, practice meditation or trance states, or have fits of glossolalia.
Here is the summary/conclusion of Atran's chapter "Waves of Passion" addressing the frontal lobe theories of Persinger etc..:

Originally Posted by Atran

Summary: Mystical Episodes Inspire New Religions, but Don't Make Religion

Stressful personal episodes become religious experiences by instantiating publicly relevant schemas. Within such cultural schemas, even the eccentric voices and visions of clinically diagnosed schizophrenics and epileptics can become publicly sanctioned revelations, as they are in some societies. The religious hallucinations and delusions of schizophrenics, the sensory enlightenments of temporal lobe epileptics(possibly the Apostle Paul, more likely Saint Theresa de Avila), and the mystical visions and voices of persons are at the extreme end of the "normal" distribution(Jacob, Jesus, Mohammed, Paliau, Maharishi Yogi?).

In historically seminal moments, their unpredictable, "miraculous" revelations have undoubtedly inspired common belief in divine intention and grace. Malfunctioning or hyperactive theories of mind and intentional agency are cognitively and emotionally ripe for supernatural co-optation. Revivalist and starter cults are more likely than established religions to acknowledge the divine character of these more extreme mystical experiences. As Adam Smith noted, this is because such religious sects aim to radically reform or recreate religious obeisance "by carrying it to some degree of folly or extravagance". A startling episode of intense sensory arousal in a face-to-face encounter with the supernatural may prove unforgettable and emotive enough to permanently inculcate religious belief in a person, and perhaps jump-start new belief in society.

For the most part, however, relatively few individuals have emotionally arousing mystical experiences, at least in our society, although the overwhelming majority of individuals consider themselves to be religious believers. Neither is there any evidence that more "routine" religious experiences have a characteristic temporal lobe signature or any other specified type of brain activity pattern. The neuropsychological bases that commit the bulk of humanity to the supernatural remain a complete mystery.

Originally Posted by Turtle

For the believer haters, if they allow that the believers literally can't help themselves then their beating up on them for their beliefs looks like what it is; simple bullying and cruelty. Quite possibly both extremes have some manner of structure that predisposes them. Bummer.

Boyer recently published an article in Nature about the inevitability of religion. Here are a couple of blog responses from Wilkins at Evolving Thoughts and Razib at GXP. I agree with points made by both of them. One made by Wilkins is that religious fervor does fluctuate historically, and that a skeptic society is ripe for invasion by religious ideas. Denmark and Sweden may end up becoming more religious in the future, America may become more non-religious, and then bounce back.
A point Razib makes well is that supernatural beliefs are inevitable given the way our minds are set up, but institutionalized religion may not be.
Personally, I try to be optimistic, but given the cultural history of America and the competitive market of religions/cults I am not sure if we will ever end up like Sweden or Denmark.

As far as "haters" "beating up on" believers and not wanting to address the neuroscience of belief... I point you to the recent work of prominent atheist and neuroscientist Sam Harris'(currently working on a Phd at UCLA) recent work on belief and the brain:
http://www.samharris.org/images/uplo...heth_Cohen.pdf
Review by Oliver Sacks:
http://www.samharris.org/images/uplo..._Editorial.pdf
Recent interview in which his research and views of religion are discussed:
The Science Studio > Facts, Values and a Place for the Profound

For an overview of studies of religion as a natural phenomenon, I would recommend Daniel Dennett's "Breaking The Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon". Dennett discusses the group selection ideas of D. S. Wilson, the rational-choice models of Starke etc, the cognitive models of Boyer/Atran, and proposes some other interesting ideas. For an in depth look from the cognitive/evolutionary anthropology perspective(a bit more heavy of a read than Dennett's book) I would highly recommend Atran's "In Gods We Trust". This book was highly enjoyable to me, and there is damn near a college education in it. So many interesting scientific facts, and a lot of cool research done by Atran on cognition and innateness.

Here is an additional article covering the work of Atran, Boyer, Wilson, and others over at GXP:
Gene Expression: Levels of analysis of religion, Atran, Boyer & Wilson

[Moontanman]

I've read this thread and so far it would seem no one is aware that a deeply religious experience can be triggered simply by stimulating the temporal lobes of the brain with a certain electromagnetic field. This would seem to show that religion and god both originate in the brain.

The God Experiments | The Rational Response Squad

Electromagnetic spirituality: Seeing God and becoming one with the universe using the “God Helmet” The Frame Problem

Erowid Mind Devices Vaults : Magnetic Brain Stimulation