Religion, its Function

[BibleBeliever]

But the point is the origin of religion, if we find that then the effects of it in the real world will have a point of reference.

If the religion of the day is not following the original principles and society is going downhill then it may be that we need to return to the original system rather than to reject this faulty religion and go it alone.

To say we are not special is just false humility, why would God not make the whole of the universe just to show us His awesomeness, after all there may come a time when we get to go and have a look at it ;-)

To judge something by it's result is not necessarily judging the thing itself but those who are completing the laws, for example if the law says thou shalt not kill and people cary on killing- in the name of religion- then to say the law is at fault is wrong, you need to go back to the original and point out that these people are not following the law.

Is it possible that religion, (a specific one) is given to us to help us live at peace but we in our selfishness twist it so we can get the better of others?

But that's the point of Old Testament law to show us that we are not the good people that we think we are.

[InfiniteNow]

Originally Posted by BibleBeliever

But the point is the origin of religion

Religion, its function. Not sure these are the same...

To say we are not special is just false humility,

Well, perhaps, but it could also be an accurate representation that we are in no way different from all other decaying matter. The special is self appointed label, and really does not speak to anything about nature.

Is it possible that religion, (a specific one) is given to us to help us live at peace but we in our selfishness twist it so we can get the better of others?

Of course anything is possible, however, I have rather strong reservation that religion helps us live in peace, and history (I feel) supports this reservation rather vehemently.

But that's the point of Old Testament law to show us that we are not the good people that we think we are.

This could be interpreted in other ways. Perhaps it's to keep us locked in a sense of guilt so we are more malleable. The rat afraid of shock tends to be easier to train...


Religion has many functions. It offers solice. It offers a place of commune. It provides hope to many who have lost it, but the negatives in our religious world are (IMO) quickly overtaking the positives.

[chill]

Originally Posted by BibleBeliever

To say we are not special is just false humility, why would God not make the whole of the universe just to show us His awesomeness, after all there may come a time when we get to go and have a look at it ;-)

Well, at least in my case I know it's not false. After reading things like The Elegant Universe, A Brief History of Time, and others, I kind of got a sense of how insignificant we really are and how big the Universe is. We are the Thermodynamic Miracle, as Dr Manhattan of the Watchmen said, but truthfully that's all we are; a coincidence. If you want to get a sense of how big the universe really is, I recommend you the two previously mentioned books, by Brian Green and Stephen Hawking respectively (Watchmen is by Alan Moore).

Originally Posted by BibleBeliever

If the religion of the day is not following the original principles and society is going downhill then it may be that we need to return to the original system rather than to reject this faulty religion and go it alone.

To judge something by it's result is not necessarily judging the thing itself but those who are completing the laws, for example if the law says thou shalt not kill and people cary on killing- in the name of religion- then to say the law is at fault is wrong, you need to go back to the original and point out that these people are not following the law.

Is it possible that religion, (a specific one) is given to us to help us live at peace but we in our selfishness twist it so we can get the better of others?

Yes, you have a good point there. It would be wrong to imply that when someone does something Evil in the name of religion it's the fault of the religion. It would, however, also be wrong to imply the reverse; that religion has no part to play whatsoever. Afterall, extremists quote their Holy Scipture, too. It is also the fault of the Scripture for being ambiguous in its phrasing. In the end, you realize, it boils down to the person's basic character.

Aside from that, yes, religion I understand was meant to be Good, to govern society and people. However, it comes with many side-effects (extremism, the intolerance of other religions, and so on). Hence, as a governing system, is it the best? Afterall, all modern law systems absolutely encourage peace. Hence, I am trying to move away altogether from the concept of religion as a governing system. Notice that I didn't make mention of it as a benefit of religion. The relevant function of religion today is Faith amd its ability to manipulate it, powerfully.

[BibleBeliever]

Originally Posted by InfiniteNow

Religion has many functions. It offers solice. It offers a place of commune. It provides hope to many who have lost it, but the negatives in our religious world are (IMO) quickly overtaking the positives.

That's because people lump all religion together, this cannot be done as they all have different principles and ways of dealing with the real world. To look at any one religion and see it's effect on the society that embraces it, gives a better idea of the value of that particular religion, than to look at a culture that has accepted all views as equal and therefore tries to accomodate them.
This does not mean that everyone is not entitled to a view, but that it is realised that some views are not beneficial to the population.

Then again majority rule is not always a good basis for good government either.

This is an ongoing problem, but to reject the 'real' religion just because false religions don't work puts us in a position where we have to make up our rules from scratch and anarchy will soon follow.

[InfiniteNow]

You raise a nice point, BB, but I do, however, take issue with your final paragraph. It's arrogant, and baseless, and is your own belief... It is not founded on any truth that is unsubjective.

Originally Posted by BibleBeliever

This is an ongoing problem, but to reject the 'real' religion just because false religions don't work puts us in a position where we have to make up our rules from scratch and anarchy will soon follow.

Told ya it wouldn't be easy...

[BibleBeliever]

Originally Posted by chill

Aside from that, yes, religion I understand was meant to be Good, to govern society and people. However, it comes with many side-effects (extremism, the intolerance of other religions, and so on). Hence, as a governing system, is it the best? Afterall, all modern law systems absolutely encourage peace. Hence, I am trying to move away altogether from the concept of religion as a governing system. Notice that I didn't make mention of it as a benefit of religion. The relevant function of religion today is Faith amd its ability to manipulate it, powerfully.

Here's a suggestion, perhaps religion, and I mean here a system of laws from which if you keep them you will receive some reward, if you don't keep them then some punishment follows - perhaps we're missing the point. What is it's function? After reading and listening a lot about this subject my conclusion is that it's function is to show us who we really are.
In a nutshell:

There are rules - do you agree?
We don't keep them -true?
We deserve punishment - realistic consequence.

But that's not the end of the story...

If I say more it will be preaching, I'm just putting forward a different view.

[BibleBeliever]

Infinitenow wrote
I do, however, take issue with your final paragraph. It's arrogant, and baseless, and is your own belief... It is not founded on any truth that is unsubjective.

What about communism? That may not have been anarchy but it didn't do what it said on the packet.

[Tormod]

Originally Posted by BibleBeliever

What about communism? That may not have been anarchy but it didn't do what it said on the packet.

This is pointless and quite off topic. Communism is not a religion but an ideology.

[Tormod]

Originally Posted by BibleBeliever

Here's a suggestion, perhaps religion, and I mean here a system of laws from which if you keep them you will receive some reward, if you don't keep them then some punishment follows - perhaps we're missing the point. What is it's function?

The way you describe it, religion has only one function: social order and control, sometimes abuse, with the threat of punishment. However not all religions threaten with punishment nor offers eternal life. They don't even all have deities (like Buddhism).

Being religious is something else entirely, and is about the individuals' expression of faith. I think most "religious" people in this world are so because they were born into a system of religion, not because they chose it.

In a nutshell:

There are rules - do you agree?
We don't keep them -true?
We deserve punishment - realistic consequence.

It's impossible to answer these without generalisation.

But the three questions basically describe a judiciary system: law, enforcement, punishment. It does not apply to religion only but to society as a whole.

If I say more it will be preaching, I'm just putting forward a different view.

Your views are not as original as you may think, and you are pretty close to preaching in several of your posts. I would advise against a strategy of using religious items as proof or to use *your* religion's artefacts as example of religionin general (as for example the old testament).

[chill]

Originally Posted by BibleBeliever

my conclusion is that it's function is to show us who we really are.

Well go on, try me. What do you mean by show us who we really are? How do you connect this to religion's fucntion at the societal level?

If you mean religion at the existentialist level, then I comprehend. But how much time does it need, and how many people, actually take religion to an existentialist level. And how do you ensure their interpretation is correct? How do YOU know your interpretation is correct? How do you know in all honesty that it's not the extremists who had the correct interpretation all along? If you take religion to the personal, existentialist level it becomes way too subjective to be functional at a societal level; there are simply too many different interpretations.