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[Eddy_P]

Originally Posted by GAHD

not like it could be Glass or anything. gotta be plastic.

This question has been previously asked of Ronald Pegg in 2001…

Isn't this 1827 picture of Joseph Smith and his witnesses, just showing a glass plate with his fingers showing through, and not a plastic CD container ?

His answer was as follows (used with permission)..

It does look like a glass plate, doesn't it, and historically, photographic glass plates of that size were invented in that century, around the year Joseph Smith took possession of his "religious" articles. Add to this the fact that plastic was not discovered until much later, the notion of it being a plastic compact disk container seems to go against logic.

So we must carefully evaluate all the evidence to enable us to make a conclusion whether this is a picture of a glass (photographic) plate or a plastic compact disk container.

Glass Plate
In 1822 the "Camera", and in 1826 "Photography" were invented by Joseph Niepce. These devices utilized photographic glass "plates" and varied in size, but were approximately six to eight inches square and contained an image on the face of the glass when exposed. So they either had an image on them when they were exposed, or were blank and clear before they were exposed. Other than that, there was no content within the plate itself.

Plastic Container
On page 27 of the Mormon publication (6/95) "Truth Restored" is a picture of the Eight Witnesses and Smith holding the above box, and is partly entitled "and held in their hands the gold plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated".

On the 'Brief Explanation About' page of The Book of Mormon, it is explained that "the teachings of the prophets; the history by Mormon; a commentary by Moroni; and a record of the Jews" were contained in these plates.
(Could a blank glass plate contain all that information ?)

One plate in particular, The Plate of Brass, is said to have contained "the five books of Moses, a record of the Jews, and also the prophecies of the holy prophets". These are referring to the Pentateuch, the Historical Writings (of Kings and Chronicles for example), and the Prophetic books.

Comparison
Visual evidence from the above picture gives that either a glass plate or a plastic compact disk container is being held in the person's hand.
Now to take into account what was contained in that plate.

Does a blank, unexposed (or exposed) glass photographic plate (of the mid 1800s) contain "the five books of Moses, the Historical Writings of the Jews, and the prophecies of the holy prophets" ?

NO



This is the Holy Bible CD-Rom. It is a brass colour.
A compact disk looks somewhat like a plate.
Compact disks are normally housed in a plastic container.
They can contain much information.

Does this Brass Plate contain "the five books of Moses, the Historical Writings of the Jews, and the prophecies of the holy prophets" ?

YES

From the visual and documented evidence, the glass photographic plate is NOT the answer.

Pegg’s Conclusion was that the Mormon prophet was describing a specific compact disk, being ‘brass’ in colour, that was held in a plastic cd-case (as earlier illustrated), being the Holy Bible CD-Rom.
.

[Buffy]

Did Moroni leave him a laptop too so he could read the "plates?"

Official church history says very specifically that the Golden Plates were "engraved," and that the method of "reading them" were "a pair of large spectacles he called the "Urim and Thummim" or "Interpreters", with lenses consisting of two seer stones". These are physically described as "crystal-like: 'two smooth three-cornered diamonds.'"

It takes a pretty creative imagination--not to speak of a gigantic hidden agenda--to turn "specatcles" into a CD-ROM drive and a laptop.

Joseph Smith's own description of the plates is that "each plate was six inches wide and eight inches long, and not quite so thick as common tin. They were...bound together in a volume, as the leaves of a book, with three rings running through the whole. The volume was something near six inches in thickness" (which would be a *lot* of pages).

Here is a picture of a full-scale model of the plates based on his description (ibid.):

(ibid. Click for full-size image)

Now all of this took me a half hour to research and was verified by a Mormon friend I called this evening.

Don't tell me you were too lazy to do anything other than take the word of a self-promoting crackpot....

Your thread has been *charitably* put in the Strange Claims Forum, but that does not relieve you of the requirement for providing evidence which is not so easily contradicted.

Though I could not caution all, I still might warn a few: Don't lend your hand to raise no flag...
Buffy

[Eddy_P]

Originally Posted by Buffy

Did Moroni leave him a laptop too so he could read the "plates?"
Official church history says very specifically that the Golden Plates were "engraved," and that the method of "reading them" were “a pair of large spectacles he called the "Urim and Thummim" or "Interpreters", with lenses consisting of two seer stones".

Thanks for your time and the links.

The “Golden Plates” are not to what Pegg refers.
It is the accompanying items: “…along with which would be found "two stones in silver bows” ” - the “other artifacts”.

Joseph Smith in 1827 reports that "Also, there were two stones in silver bows-and these stones, fastened to a breastplate, constituted what is called the Urim and Thummim- deposited with the plates".

Ronald Pegg claims that this testimony declared at the front of the Book of Mormon by Joseph Smith accounts for the two cd-roms – Ancients and Grolier - where:
The "stones" = the compact disks;
The "breastplate" = the base-plate that holds a compact disk in place;
The "silver bows" = the two plastic cases (seen being held in the Mormon picture).

Now to quote one of the links you provided:

In translating the Book of Mormon from the Golden Plates, Smith said he used "Interpreters", a pair of crystals joined in the form of a large pair of spectacles, which he later referred to as the "Urim and Thummim." In 1823 Smith said that an angel told him of the existence of Golden Plates, along with which would be found "two stones in silver bows" fastened to a breastplate, which the angel called the Urim and Thummim and which he said God had prepared for translating the plates.

This is what I derive from the citations…

“’Interpreters’, a pair of crystals joined in the form of a large pair of spectacles” = a two part joined, opened plastic cd-case (with the black breast-plate removed).

Physical Test:
Grab a mid 1990s plastic cd-case, open it up, take out the black base-plate, put them to your eyes and look in a mirror - they look like large crystal (ie. glass-like) spectacles.

Golden Plates = book-like metal plates (as you point out).

“along with which would be found ‘two stones in silver bows’ fastened to a breastplate, which the angel called the Urim and Thummim” = 2 plastic (mid 1990s) cd-cases with 2 compact disks fastened to the 'black' breast-plate.

The "stones" = the compact disks;
The "breastplate" = the black base;
The "silver bows" = the two plastic cases.

Originally Posted by Buffy

It takes a pretty creative imagination--not to speak of a gigantic hidden agenda--to turn "spectacles" into a CD-ROM drive and a laptop.

I was previously not aware of the "spectacles” description by Smith.

This extra bit of information adds strength to Pegg’s claim, as an opened plastic cd-case DOES look like spectacles - being a reasonable description by a mid 1800s person.

Note: “turn ‘spectacles’ into a CD-ROM drive and a laptop” has never been said nor implied by Pegg or myself.

[freeztar]

Wow, how scientific....I can't argue with that.

[Eddy_P]

Eddy, you are just pasting and not actually providing required evidence. This is merely an opinion.

No. It is a conclusion based upon the presented evidence by the Mormon witnesses and associated illustration.




1. The Mormon witnesses are holding either a clear a) glass, or b) plastic square container.

Plastics were not yet developed at that time in the early to mid 1800s in America, so the first presumption is that is has to be a glass plate (probably photographic).

BUT
2. The Mormon witnesses document and explain what this “plate” contained…
"the teachings of the prophets; the history by Mormon; a commentary by Moroni; and a record of the Jews"

For over 170 years this did not seem to make sense, as the ‘glass plate’ was transparent thus not containing any images nor information.

Pegg’s theory is that is it a plastic cd-case that held the HOLY BIBLE cd-rom (due to Time Travel, etc, etc.)

Method
Compare the Mormon descriptions with the contents of
1. a blank mid 1800s glass plate.
2. A mid 1990s plastic cd-case that contained the ‘Holy bible’ cd-rom (described in other Mormon texts as “The Plate of Brass” [due to its brass colour]).

Option 2 provides an exact match of details.

Conclusion.
The object held and illustrated in the mid 1800s and described by Joseph Smith (elsewhere as a ‘seer stone’) was the HOLY BIBLE compact disk.
.

[freeztar]

Ok, I've got one for you Eddy.

Take a look at this photo:
Old Picture of the Day: Ironclad USS Monitor

Do you see the sailor pointing to what looks like a book laying on the deck of the ship?

The sailors descriptions of the object are as follows:

"This amazing object contained words that spoke to us..."
"It was more than words..."
"It kept the boredom at bay for awhile, but then it stopped working..."

It's obvious to see that this "book" is actually a speak-and-spell transported back in time from the future.

The evidence is irrefutable.