[MegaManiac]

Originally Posted by freeztar

Have a look at this wiki on Duncan MacDougall.

This thread might better be suited to the Theology or Philosophy forums.

This is not philosophical and hardly theological !

Wouldn't it really be quantum mechanics. Where do those energy molecules go? How are they transformmed or transferred

The following is borrowed from (Vivio Calendar) .hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/inteng.html

Internal energy is defined as the energy associated with the random, disordered motion of molecules. It is separated in scale from the macroscopic ordered energy associated with moving objects; it refers to the invisible microscopic energy on the atomic and molecular scale.
For example, a room temperature glass of water sitting on a table has no apparent energy, either potential or kinetic. But on the microscopic scale it is a seething mass of high speed molecules traveling at hundreds of meters per second. If the water were tossed across the room, this microscopic energy would not necessarily be changed when we superimpose an ordered large scale motion on the water as a whole.

WHAT HAPPENS TO ALL THE ENERGY (TEMPERATURE, KINETIC & OTHERWISE)!!!!!!!!

Mass is just a super concentrated form of energy!

HERE'S A THEORY:

We cyclically become one with the universe momentarily or longer . . . Until we coaless with an object of mass. Again, working under the assumption that all energy has mass has energy has mass has energy, etc etc etc.


______MNM______

[REASON]

Originally Posted by REASON

How can any detectable bodily energy be defined as soul energy?

My question still applies.

[MegaManiac]

Originally Posted by REASON

It sounds to me like you are suggesting that it is known that soul *energy* exists.

What gives you that idea?

How can any detectable bodily energy be defined as soul energy?

I'm speaking of all energy present in the body at the time of death. Temperature, kinetic, microscopic, etc. THE ESSENCE OF US is ALL of those energies combined. And we as humans want to label them. So if you wanna call it soul energy go ahead.

I'll call it aggrigate energy that people like to label as the soul becuase they possess spirit. And we can't imagine that spirit no being one forever and intact. I say that energy is absorbed by one or more bodies of mass. Microscopic or otherwise.

I AM NOT WILLING TO ACCEPT THAT EVEN MICROSCOPIC ENERGY DOESN'T HAVE MASS. WE JUST CAN'T MEASURE IT RIGHT NOW.

And until someone can convince me otherwise, I stand by the reasoning that there is much to be considered on this topic. I believe it to have some substance.

MNM

[MegaManiac]

Originally Posted by REASON

My question still applies.

REASON - your labeling it as soul energy. I'm not! So you better answer your own question here my friend.

I'm just stating a fact that energy has mass. That mass can't be created or destroyed. Only transformed or transferred. So what the hell happens to all the energy that kept us alive when we are dead.

Perhaps the energy turns into gas?

An ideal gas is defined as one in which all collisions between atoms or molecules are perfectly eleastic and in which there are no intermolecular attractive forces. One can visualize it as a collection of perfectly hard spheres which collide but which otherwise do not interact with each other. In such a gas, all the internal energy is in the form of kinetic energy and any change in internal energy is accompanied by a change in temperature.

Internal energy involves energy on the microscopic scale. For an ideal monatomic gas, this is just the translational kinetic energy of the linear motion of the "hard sphere" type atoms, and the behavior of the system is well described by kinetic theory. However, for polyatomic gases there is rotational and vibrational kinetic energy as well. Then in liquids and solids there is potential energy associated with the intermolecular attractive forces. A simplified visualization of the contributions to internal energy can be helpful in understanding phase transitions and other phenomena which involve internal energy.

MNM

[MegaManiac]

Originally Posted by REASON

A Soul has about as much mass as any other idea.

One would have to be able to detect a soul in order to determine whether it had mass, or energy for that matter.

So far, none detected.

BS! For example: we've never detected or seen a white hole but isn't it somewhat accepted that they exist provided they are the end of a worm hole.

Plus, if you don't hear a smell free fart. It still exists, we just didn't detect it from the person who squeezed it out.

I don't accept the general thinking that if we can't detect something it doesn't exist. We just havent figured out how to detect, or measure it if you will.

MNM

[InfiniteNow]

Originally Posted by MegaManiac

BS! For example: we've never detected or seen a white hole but isn't it somewhat accepted that they exist provided they are the end of a worm hole.

No, it's not.

Originally Posted by MegaManiac

Plus, if you don't hear a smell free fart. It still exists, we just didn't detect it from the person who squeezed it out.

Yes, we can.

Originally Posted by MegaManiac

I don't accept the general thinking that if we can't detect something it doesn't exist.

I don't think that's the "general thinking." I agree that just because we lack technology to detect something does not mean it does not exist. However, you're assuming that the soul exists, without providing any parameters or clear definition. You mentioned something about "the aggregate energy" that is in the body at death, but that's not very useful.

Your current approach is no different to suggesting that unicorns exist, and the only reason people argue against unicorns is because they haven't been detected. That's rubbish.

It's not that we lack technology to detect a soul. It's that nobody has yet to define it in a manner that allows detection.

"Well... It's that thing... you know... that only humans have... and, uhh... it like kinda makes us special... and .... Oooh... I've got it... It's like an essence or something... yeah... that's it....Essence."

[REASON]

Originally Posted by MegaManiac

REASON - your labeling it as soul energy. I'm not! So you better answer your own question here my friend.

I'm just stating a fact that energy has mass. That mass can't be created or destroyed. Only transformed or transferred. So what the hell happens to all the energy that kept us alive when we are dead.

Perhaps the energy turns into gas?

An ideal gas is defined as one in which all collisions between atoms or molecules are perfectly eleastic and in which there are no intermolecular attractive forces. One can visualize it as a collection of perfectly hard spheres which collide but which otherwise do not interact with each other. In such a gas, all the internal energy is in the form of kinetic energy and any change in internal energy is accompanied by a change in temperature.

Internal energy involves energy on the microscopic scale. For an ideal monatomic gas, this is just the translational kinetic energy of the linear motion of the "hard sphere" type atoms, and the behavior of the system is well described by kinetic theory. However, for polyatomic gases there is rotational and vibrational kinetic energy as well. Then in liquids and solids there is potential energy associated with the intermolecular attractive forces. A simplified visualization of the contributions to internal energy can be helpful in understanding phase transitions and other phenomena which involve internal energy.

You can sit here and pose your definitions of matter and energy all you want. The title of this thread is "Does the Soul have Mass?" and you are claiming that bodily energy has mass, and that bodily energy is therefore what constitutes the soul. All I offered was the question, "how can any detectable bodily energy be defined as soul energy?" I believe the soul is nothing more than a concept, and therefore doesn't have mass or energy, other than the energy required to think of it.

So far, your only explanation is:

Originally Posted by MegaManiac

I'm speaking of all energy present in the body at the time of death. Temperature, kinetic, microscopic, etc. THE ESSENCE OF US is ALL of those energies combined. And we as humans want to label them. So if you wanna call it soul energy go ahead.

So it is actually YOU who is labeling it as such. I have done nothing of the sort. To me energy is just that, energy. It is always conserved, and it is always taking different form. If you want to suggest that our internal energy is what constitutes our souls, hey, bully for you. But I will remind you that the various forms of energy present in our bodies are typical of the types of energy found throughout nature.

If not, than you have yet to define a soul and therefore cannot posit whether or not it has mass.

Originally Posted by MegaManiac

I AM NOT WILLING TO ACCEPT THAT EVEN MICROSCOPIC ENERGY DOESN'T HAVE MASS. WE JUST CAN'T MEASURE IT RIGHT NOW.

And until someone can convince me otherwise, I stand by the reasoning that there is much to be considered on this topic. I believe it to have some substance.

Well you see, this is what's great about being an individual, you can believe whatever you want. What will continue to remain in question is whether what you believe is reasonable.

Originally Posted by MegaManiac

BS! For example: we've never detected or seen a white hole but isn't it somewhat accepted that they exist provided they are the end of a worm hole.

Plus, if you don't hear a smell free fart. It still exists, we just didn't detect it from the person who squeezed it out.

I don't accept the general thinking that if we can't detect something it doesn't exist. We just havent figured out how to detect, or measure it if you will.

Well then from this line of thinking, everything you can imagine therefore exists, whether it's detectable or not.

How about fire breathing dragons, fairies, ghosts, spirits, god, heaven, hell, anal probing aliens, magic spells, or INow's favorite, purple unicorns? Do all of these things exist, but "we just haven't figured out how to detect, or measure" them?

You'd do better to come at this from the opposite direction. It doesn't actually exist until it can be predictably demonstrated to exist. This is what science is all about.

[MegaManiac]

Originally Posted by REASON

You can sit here and pose your definitions of matter and energy all you want. The title of this thread is "Does the Soul have Mass?" and you are claiming that bodily energy has mass, and that bodily energy is therefore what constitutes the soul. All I offered was the question, "how can any detectable bodily energy be defined as soul energy?" I believe the soul is nothing more than a concept, and therefore doesn't have mass or energy, other than the energy required to think of it.

So far, your only explanation is:



So it is actually YOU who is labeling it as such. I have done nothing of the sort. To me energy is just that, energy. It is always conserved, and it is always taking different form. If you want to suggest that our internal energy is what constitutes our souls, hey, bully for you.

If not, than you have yet to define a soul and therefore cannot posit whether or not it has mass.

Well you see, this is what's great about being an individual, you can believe whatever you want. What will continue to remain in question is whether what you believe is reasonable.

Well then from this line of thinking, everything you can imagine therefore exists, whether it's detectable or not.

How about fire breathing dragons, fairies, ghosts, spirits, god, heaven, hell, anal probing aliens, magic spells, or INow's favorite, purple unicorns? Do all of these things exist, but "we just haven't figured out how to detect, or measure" them?

You'd do better to come at this from the opposite direction. It doesn't actually exist until it can be predictably demonstrated to exist. This is what science is all about.

See now this is good stuff for me!!! But for arguments sake, let's take the term soul out of it completely. And let me approach this from a more simple angle, even if it is only for my benefit.

1. All the energy in your body right at the moment of death. Where does that energy get transferred?

2. Do we accept that that energy has mass?

3. If we accept energy has mass, then that energy continues on. Is my basis for thought completely off here.

4. Why do I care? (I don't know, I just do. Lot like love)

by the way I appreciate you taking your valuable time to acknowledge my abstract notions. It takes a village to raise and idiot. I'm kinda in my wax on wax off stage But my abstract and against the grain thinking have served me well. So fogive me as I sharpen the saw.

Pretty soon I'll CRANE KICKING your azz all over hyperbia


______MNM______

[freeztar]

Originally Posted by MegaManiac

1. All the energy in your body right at the moment of death. Where does that energy get transferred?

The usual suspects:
atmosphere, bacteria, fungi, worms, dust mites, etc...

2. Do we accept that that energy has mass?

It's more appropriate to say that the mass (your decaying body) has energy.

3. If we accept energy has mass, then that energy continues on. Is my basis for thought completely off here.

You're not completely off, but just misunderstanding it a bit.
E=Mc^2
Energy=Mass times the speed of light (in vacuum) squared

Energy does not equal mass. You could say that mass equals energy divided by c^2, though. Make sense?

Pretty soon I'll CRANE KICKING your azz all over hyperbia

Be careful!
Don't use all your energy kickin that mazz.

[REASON]

Originally Posted by MegaManiac

See now this is good stuff for me!!! But for arguments sake, let's take the term soul out of it completely. And let me approach this from a more simple angle, even if it is only for my benefit.

1. All the energy in your body right at the moment of death. Where does that energy get transferred?

Over time, all forms of internal energy in a body are transferred back into the collective universe. Some more rapidly such as the initial release of heat energy, some more slowly, such as during the decaying process.

2. Do we accept that that energy has mass?

No. Energy is work, typically measured in joules.

3. If we accept energy has mass, then that energy continues on. Is my basis for thought completely off here.

I don't accept that energy has mass, but it does continue on because it is always conserved. It only changes form.

4. Why do I care? (I don't know, I just do. Lot like love)

I imagine because you seem to have an insatiable curiosity, which combined with an open and patient mind, is great for science. I speculate that patience is a bit of a challenge for you though.

Originally Posted by MegaManiac

by the way I appreciate you taking your valuable time to acknowledge my abstract notions. It takes a village to raise and idiot. I'm kinda in my wax on wax off stage But my abstract and against the grain thinking have served me well. So fogive me as I sharpen the saw.

Pretty soon I'll CRANE KICKING your azz all over hyperbia

I appreciate these comments. Being humble suits you.

I gotta admit, I like your enthusiasm. Keep soakin' it up MM. Your thirst for knowledge will prove to be rewarding.