Gas Prices

[Moontanman]

Originally Posted by Zythryn

Supply is not keeping up with demand. That is the basic reason. While demand in the US took a small dip, increases in worldwide demand make that a very minor point.
While Mexico's production is in decline, it is also consuming more each year. Estimates are that Mexico will no longer be exporting any oil around 2012 as their demand reaches the level of their production.
What I am doing to alleviate the pump prices? Nothing I haven't already done. Bought a Prius (2 actually if you count my wife's car) last year. This cut my gasoline bill in half. So until gasoline goes north of $5 - $6 I am spending less than I did prior to my Prius purchase.
I do limit my driving and combine errands when I can. However, that is not due to pump prices. That is just because I wish to use less oil.

Lucky you Zythryn, If all of us could buy a hybrid or an electric the world would be a much better place. At this point there is no shortage of oil that is not man made. OPEC keeps it production low enough to keep the prices very high. Theoretically that would be illegal in the US but of course we don't control the world. It's a shitty idea but think about how the world would react if there was a consortium of FPEC (food producing exporting countries) that keep the supply of food low to jack up prices. Yes we need to move away from oil as an energy source, we need nuclear power, solar power, geothermal power as energy sources. but crippling the economy by keep everyone from being able to live isn't going to help the world get there. We live in a large country, it take lots of energy to transport people, raw materials, and finished goods over this and any other country for that matter. I think we are already engaged in the third world war and it doesn't have a thing to do with shooting people or dropping bombs no matter how hard some try to convince the world it is. It's called economic warfare and in the long run it is as damning as any other type of war can be. to win it we need to be flexible and self sustaining in our energy needs and uses but the whole idea of controlling energy prices and keeping them high prevent us from doing the very things we need to do to win or even bring about a stalemate.

[modest]

Brazil is a model we should all look to

Brazil's Biofuel Strategy Pays Off as Gas Prices Soar

Such bumper sugar crops have often meant worldwide gluts, low prices and headaches for politicians in the more than 100 countries where sugar cane is grown, but not this year in Brazil. About half the cane brought here will be made into ethanol as part of a 30-year gamble to substitute fuels made from crops for imported oil...

As international oil prices soar, that bet has put Brazil at the forefront of a "biofuels"...

[Zythryn]

Originally Posted by Moontanman

Lucky you Zythryn, If all of us could buy a hybrid or an electric the world would be a much better place.

Luck has nothing to do with it.
I realized years ago that oil is a finite reasource and that the price of gasoline is, year over year, going to continue to rise.
Hybrids are not the only solution, any high effiency car will improve your situation. 34 mpg is far better than the average 20mpg.
And yes, I agree that if hybrid or preferable all electric cars were available to everyone the world would be a better place

Originally Posted by Moontanman

OPEC keeps it production low enough to keep the prices very high. ...

Do you realize how little of the US oil imports are from OPEC nations??
The price is determined by the free market. The price is spiking due to the fact that we no longer can produce enough to handle any major supply disruptions. So any fear of a geologic, weather or political disruption sends prices soaring.

[Moontanman]

Luck has nothing to do with it.
I realized years ago that oil is a finite reasource and that the price of gasoline is, year over year, going to continue to rise.

Any one who didn't see this coming is quite a bit less than unlucky, not everyone is in the financial situation to buy the way they should and then you have a large proportion of the population that is simply locked into cars that are old and cannot be replaced due to lack of money or credit or some other reason. to suggest that anyone or everyone should have bought certain cars ignores reality. as much as I enjoy ignoring reality it never goes away.

Hybrids are not the only solution, any high effiency car will improve your situation. 34 mpg is far better than the average 20mpg.

You are of course completely correct but I have found that the people most guilty of buying gas hogs are the people who thought they could ignore gas prices because they made so much money filling a hummer tank with 50 gallons of fuel was no big deal. I do not have any sympathy for these people. I remember choking when gas hit $1 a gallon and I was a big proponent of methane powered cars but no one seemed to be listening. Gasoline was too entrenched to even think about a alternative so all the money was spent on making gas engines less polluting and this is where we ended up.

And yes, I agree that if hybrid or preferable all electric cars were available to everyone the world would be a better place
Do you realize how little of the US oil imports are from OPEC nations??
The price is determined by the free market. The price is spiking due to the fact that we no longer can produce enough to handle any major supply disruptions. So any fear of a geologic, weather or political disruption sends prices soaring.

OPEC still sets the prices, even the prices of non OPEC producers. No one is going to sell their oil at a rate less than the set price, it would be crazy to do that.

[freeztar]

Originally Posted by Zythryn

Do you realize how little of the US oil imports are from OPEC nations??

According to this nifty chart, we get most of our refined oil from the UK and only 3% comes from OPEC. We do get most of our crude oil from OPEC though, almost 54% in 2007.

[modest]

Originally Posted by freeztar

According to this nifty chart, we get most of our refined oil from the UK and only 3% comes from OPEC. We do get most of our crude oil from OPEC though, almost 54%.

Seems like an economic disaster we don't refine all our own oil.

According to: Refinery shortages, gasoline prices, and what's to come - Apr. 17, 2007

The US used 17 million more gallons of gasoline than it could refine in 1995. In 2005 it was up to 36 million. And, we haven't built a new refinery since 1976.

Plans to build one in South Dakota are meeting resistance, but it will apparently happen.

New South Dakota Oil Refinery One Step Closer to Reality : Gas 2.0

I'm not too versed in economics, but hopefully getting that built will provide some relief. I can't take these prices much longer.

-modest

EDIT:

Also, nice link freeztar

[Moontanman]

I hate to say it, but I don't see gas prices going anywhere but up. I see people on TV talking about how the gas prices aren't impacting their lives very much but I do know people who are doing more than just staying home from fun, they are having to make very hard decisions about food, medicine and energy. for me it isn't easy but i do manage to go where i need to. i miss driving around in the country pursuing my native fish collecting hobby but i can do with out that. I see people who are walking great distances instead of driving. More and more people are walking several miles to go where they need to go and some of them are not fit enough to do that. Not sure what is going to happen but to a great extent the public has brought some of this about by stopping the building of refineries, opposing the building of new nuclear power plants, and by not insisting on high mileage cars instead of low pollution cars. We had a Chance to start to move away from gasoline in the 70's and we choose not to. Now is the time to look ahead and insist on the correct choices this time because next time might not come in time to save us from our selves.

[modest]

Originally Posted by Moontanman

We had a Chance to start to move away from gasoline in the 70's and we choose not to.

I couldn't agree more. This is why I brought up Brazil. They saw the problem in the 70's and decided to do something about it. Now they are so very much better off for it.

Once again we see the problem today - but are we going to do something about it? It looks like we're not. It's going to be another duct tape solution with no real improvement. So discouraging.

-modest

[Moontanman]

Originally Posted by modest

I couldn't agree more. This is why I brought up Brazil. They saw the problem in the 70's and decided to do something about it. Now they are so very much better off for it.

Once again we see the problem today - but are we going to do something about it? It looks like we're not. It's going to be another duct tape solution with no real improvement. So discouraging.

-modest

the most puzzling aspect of this was the reasons we didn't start moving in the direction of something other than gasoline. At the time methane was very cheap and often burnt off as waste from oil wells and other places. Wells were drilled and capped waiting for the prices to go up. methane was judged to dangerous to use because it had to be compressed. this simply wasn't true but it was what most people thought. Methane was used in fleet vehicles with a very good safety record. It was assumed and often confirmed by people who should have known better than methane was too explosive and a leak would be disastrous. Like gasoline isn't. methane is much safer than gasoline, methane rises quickly and leaves the area of a leak gas pools and it's vapors travel across the ground almost like a liquid. It was also thought the government would have a difficult time taxing methane since you could fill your own tank from your home gas mains with a small compressor. (like the government couldn't figured a way) Mostly the gas companies didn't want to compete with an energy source that could be home based and by pass their network of gas stations. methane not only polluted less it also made engines last much longer. It was a great fuel with no development at all and could be used in cars with almost no modifications other than carburetor. Think of how methane powered cars could have been developed if the same amount of money had been invested in methane instead of gasoline. Methane started out far superior to gasoline, it didn't need to be refined or changed for use as motor fuel, it staggers the imagination to think where we might be with methane. At the very least we would be used to handling a gas instead of liquid when we want to go to hydrogen. Again the cars companies and oil companies did everything they could to kill the idea and it died. Now we are faced with cars that cannot run on anything but gasoline with out extreme modifications that would make the cars illegal to modify. we are stuck in a situation that almost completely prevents any one from modifying their vehicles in way, so much for the home based tinkerer. I really don't like conspiracy theories but in this case I think there really was a concerted effort to stop the development of methane as a motor fuel for the masses.

[modest]

Very interesting Moontanman.

Originally Posted by Moontanman

the most puzzling aspect of this was the reasons we didn't start moving in the direction of something other than gasoline. At the time methane was very cheap and often burnt off as waste from oil wells and other places. Wells were drilled and capped waiting for the prices to go up. methane was judged to dangerous to use because it had to be compressed. this simply wasn't true but it was what most people thought.

Do you mean in the 70’s? I do not know the particulars of the history of natural gas production, but I know it was a useful and capitalized commodity earlier than the 70’s. Methane was harvested and distributed to the whole country.

I can, however, imagine it being burned off at wells like you say. If the cost of collecting the gas at a particular well would have been higher than the profit of collecting it, then it would be disposed of. While that sounds reasonable to me, I do not know how common it was nor how indicative that was to the state of the natural gas market.

Originally Posted by Moontanman

Methane was used in fleet vehicles with a very good safety record. It was assumed and often confirmed by people who should have known better than methane was too explosive and a leak would be disastrous. Like gasoline isn't.

There are currently many fleet vehicles that use natural gas (NGV fleets). I find references to school busses, taxis, trucks, shuttles, and others.

Originally Posted by Moontanman

methane is much safer than gasoline, methane rises quickly and leaves the area of a leak gas pools and it's vapors travel across the ground almost like a liquid.

I agree. So does this link:
HowStuffWorks "How Natural-gas Vehicles Work"

Originally Posted by Moontanman

It was also thought the government would have a difficult time taxing methane since you could fill your own tank from your home gas mains with a small compressor. (like the government couldn't figured a way) Mostly the gas companies didn't want to compete with an energy source that could be home based and by pass their network of gas stations.

You can buy such a compressor. Honda makes this one:
Phill natural gas refueling appliance - Phill home natural gas refueling appliance

There are also over 1,300 fueling stations that accommodate natural gas vehicles. I'm pretty sure the same companies that profit from gasoline do so with natural gas as well - but, we would have to check.

Originally Posted by Moontanman

methane not only polluted less it also made engines last much longer. It was a great fuel with no development at all and could be used in cars with almost no modifications other than carburetor.

Indeed, that is a good selling point for me. From the link above:

The biggest advantage of NGVs is that they reduce environmentally harmful emissions. natural-gas vehicles can achieve up to a 93 percent reduction in carbon monoxide emissions, 33 percent reduction in emissions of various oxides of nitrogen and a 50 percent reduction in reactive hydrocarbons when compared to gasoline vehicles. NGVs also rate higher in particulate matter 10 (PM10) emissions. PM10 particles transport and deposit toxic materials through the air.

Originally Posted by Moontanman

Think of how methane powered cars could have been developed if the same amount of money had been invested in methane instead of gasoline.

NGV cars have been developed. According to the natural gas coalition there are over 130,000 in the US and more than 2.5 million world wide. That isn’t many compared to the number of petrol and diesel vehicles - but it’s not nothing. Also, there are more than 40 manufacturers including Ford, Honda, GM, Toyota, Volvo.

Originally Posted by Moontanman

Methane started out far superior to gasoline, it didn't need to be refined or changed for use as motor fuel, it staggers the imagination to think where we might be with methane.

Much like gasoline needs to be refined from crude oil, natural gas (including methane) needs to be processed when it comes out of the ground.

Natural gas processing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally Posted by Moontanman

At the very least we would be used to handling a gas instead of liquid when we want to go to hydrogen. Again the cars companies and oil companies did everything they could to kill the idea and it died.

They mostly all make NGVs which is hardly compatible with killing the idea. I also don’t see what their motivation would be. A car company makes a profit on either kind of car.

Originally Posted by Moontanman

Now we are faced with cars that cannot run on anything but gasoline with out extreme modifications that would make the cars illegal to modify. we are stuck in a situation that almost completely prevents any one from modifying their vehicles in way, so much for the home based tinkerer. I really don't like conspiracy theories but in this case I think there really was a concerted effort to stop the development of methane as a motor fuel for the masses.

I think you might be wrong about the conspiracy theory. Check out wikipedia’s list of natural gas vehicles:

List of natural gas vehicles - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

-modest

Let me stress this link again, which I think is really good:
HowStuffWorks "How Natural-gas Vehicles Work"