Survival Wagon Idea - Recreation Or Reality TV

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

Originally Posted by Turtle

Roger tractor generator, but is that actually a generator, or is it an alternator?

On the strong box, there is good reason for it in regards to preventing theft, watertighness, and protection of tools and equipment. I have an old WWII military surplus steel box that fits in my wagon; it weighs 40 pounds empty. I continue to debate myself if leaving it in favor of 40 pounds of food or some such a matter is the best choice. Still, up in the cascades one has to guard the food against bear, cougar, porcupine, coyote, mice, martin, raccoon, Sasquatch, and other such critters.

That's a wrap from the cap.

You're goin to have to do your homework on this one ...what you want is a GENerator and the reason is thus- alternators HAVE to have electricity to begin with to start to produce power... once going they'll produce but they first need juice to the field coil to create the magnetic field needed to generate power in the rotor...Whereas a generator uses permanent magnets instead of a field coil and can produce without needing "seed" current.

The home work part (I hate homework! I thought I was done when I graduated...But NOoo! Now I've got kids and I have to help with theirs! Worse I can't make heads or tails of most of it!!)-

Your going to have to sort out whether your looking at a gen or an alt and you'll have to sort out wether it's six or twelve volt...of course you could build you're own by yankin' out the field from an alt and replacing it with permanent magnets similar in size (slightly larger covering about half the width of the windings) to the Iron (steel?) cores of the field coils...Which would probably be easier (and cheaper) than tracking down and purchasing a generator...

Note get the highest amperage of either you can as it will produce more usable power at a lower RPM...also the stronger the magnets in the field the more power per RPM.

Also note Alts are (usually) three phase and always produce alternating current (you may have to make or buy a rectifyer if you can't use the origional) While generators are usually single phase and produce DC thus needing no rectifyer.

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

Originally Posted by Turtle

On the strong box, there is good reason for it in regards to preventing theft, watertighness, and protection of tools and equipment. I have an old WWII military surplus steel box that fits in my wagon; it weighs 40 pounds empty.

40# too much weight man...you could probably halve that easily goin to aluminim....I'm thinking old truck cap as a ready source...Discarded caps are cheap here (they only pitch the aluminum ones though... wierd)...usually people get them with used pickups...don't want em...and eagerly place them in their front yards for anything from $50 to free!

Stupid peoples! (those that give em away for free as rubbish) Mine weighs about 70lbs (with the glass, 55 or so w/out)...I haven't priced scrap aluminum lately but I gotta bet there's at least $30 there!

But it's got a frame of 16Ga. 1"x1" box section which is pretty tough and it's got countless square feet of 22Ga. sheet perfect for canabalising!

Almost forgot for that 55lbs or so there is 8'x6'x4' of cap. How's that compare to your strong box dimentions?

And just in case I was misunderstood...I was talking about building the bulk of the cart-frame, deck, sides, and support for some sort of canvas roof out of aluminum in the previous (it's somewhere back there) post. Though a strong box integrated itno the design definitly sounds like a good idea.

[Turtle]

Originally Posted by DFINITLYDISTRUBD

40# too much weight man...you could probably halve that easily goin to aluminim....

Almost forgot for that 55lbs or so there is 8'x6'x4' of cap. How's that compare to your strong box dimentions?

And just in case I was misunderstood...I was talking about building the bulk of the cart-frame, deck, sides, and support for some sort of canvas roof out of aluminum in the previous (it's somewhere back there) post. Though a strong box integrated itno the design definitly sounds like a good idea.

Acknowledged on the design aspect, and it sounds good to me. On my box, again I settled for what I found at hand. Can't remeber if I said, but the wagon itself I bought on sale for only $80 at Lowes, which was how much I was looking at spending on just 2 wheels. Had to make an executive decision and bought the wagon. I see we get adverts by this thread for wagons and I clicked on one and saw a wagon like mine going for $300.

On my box, it is 27" long, 15" wide, and 12" deep, steel with a locking hasp and heavy handles on the sides. I use ratcheting strap hold-downs to secure it, the same as the ones I secure the plastic-pipe-rack to the wagon with in my vid.

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

$300!!!! Yikes you can buy a 10'3 (how do ya do cubed in a post?) dump cart (the hind you tow behind a riding mower) for less than $200...Round here I've never seen wagons go for much more than $100...sheesh!

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

Turtle-again I settled for what I found at hand.

Man I love that!

Resourcefulness and inginuity are my favorite traits (I would say human traits but neither are exclusively human), and of course recyceling (through re-assigning purpous) is always good.

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

Turtle -08-2005-society destroyed-
___ They do make a large wagon with wooden stake sides & pneumatic tires; it was about $400 as I recall. Mine is an all steel garden wagon for $80 US. The entire kit & kaboodle is well desribed in the thread.
___I have tried to anticipate what to include in the same vein as this thread, as well as accomadate minor power outages & camping excursions.

a little blast from the recent past. I knew I discussed this type of stuff with ya before

[Turtle]

Originally Posted by DFINITLYDISTRUBD

a little blast from the recent past. I knew I discussed this type of stuff with ya before

Good ol' Hypog; remembering what i say for me. Leaves more room to come up with new stuff.

Here's the top wagon seller according to the Hypog advert clinging to the thread. >> http://www.cartsandwagons.com/?sourc...agon&tid=exact

[nkt]

Wow, what a neat thread!

The inverter won't cope with that much power for long (the cooker ring), as the battery will sag rather a lot at that rate of discharge. Also, things like coils and elements have a huge in-rush current, which often trips the inverters over-current protection.

As regards the wheels, bigger is better. Harder is also better. Soft wheels lose energy as you are dragging them around, as you have to deform the rubber. You are also asking for trouble if you get a puncture. Personally, I'd go for something with cartwheel sized wheels, as these have a much lower rolling resistance, and they also have a better tolerance of the odd pothole or stone in the path of the wheel. Two wheels rather than four, in a richshaw configuration might be the best bet. After a few minutes of thought, I'm thinking use some UltraSeal in a large rickshaw style pair of pneumatic wheels, or if you can get them, rickshaw style wheels with a solid but soft rubber tyre. The thinner rims would reduce the rolling resistance, and the spoke would absorb some of the bumps. Over soft ground you would have the issue of it sinking a bit more, though, as the ground pressure would be higher, but with "fat" mountain bike tyres will mitigate that. Non-grippy ones, as seen for on-road use would be best, since they aren't being driven.

Ok, so, getting back to the ideal tyre/wheel, rather than a stream of conciousness, I'd try to find a large diameter pair of on-road mountain bike tyres, then fill them with a soft silicone rubber compound instead of an inner tube. Far lighter than a solid wheel, but no pressure to leak out, and it will still have the soft silicone and the spokes to absorb some shock, with the large diameter wheels not droipping into small holes or jamming on small stones. Just watch the total loading!

This is a brilliant idea. Having something like this is great. I'm thinking of making one now, having only just seen this thread today. (If you can read this, then I've got my password back. There's no

To get really advanced, I'm thinking now of the water issue, which would be to make the hull out of fibreglass, which is quite light, and a very high strength material. Waterproof, rot-proof, any shape you want, and bullet resistant too. Carbon fibre might be even better, but runs kind of expensive. Both are hard to patch, but a handful of small bolts and large steel and rubber washers will clamp neatly to make things waterproof again should anything get holed, and it's a fast repair.

With flexibility like this, you could make a drive system for the wheels, too, though that probably wouldnt be the best of designs. This drive system would also let you add water paddles or screws to it, for perhaps an easier time than paddling.

Just watching the video you did. Very neat. It actually seems very long, but it is only 4 minutes. :-) Good idea with the water system, but I sure hope you have it baffled inside so it doesn't slosh all over when part-full, and it has at least two completely seperate parts to it, in case of a leak!

As regards a source of power, a simple way might be to have an generator/motor (if it works both ways at the flick of a switch, it's far more useful!) with a shaft drive attachment, and a small gearbox or adjustable pulley system, connected to a boat propeller or small water wheel. You would simply park up next to a fast stream or river shallows/rapids, drop the spinner in, and the driveshaft would turn your new battery charger. :-) If it were a windy plain, then you could do the same with it in the air.

The suggestions of making a 4x4 affair are a bit daft. Sorry, but they are. All that gearing is going to loose a lot of energy as friction, and driving four wheels via chains, etc. is going to get very heavy. Drive one, or at most two wheels. If it is bad enough for it to slip, then you should get out and push or pull it. No point going fast then crashing in the hills and dying.

Another way to make energy might be to have a coupling for downhills. Staying a heavy load on a steep downhill is dangerous for both you and your cart, so a way to recharge your battery using the generator, while slowing your hill descent would be very useful. Even if they battery were full, the brake would be very much better than a regular brake system, as it would increase the braking force as speed increased.

Since you have a winch already, the motor off this would probably be ideal.

I'm going to see what designs I can come up with. The strongbox could be mounted right there in the side of the cart. Steel mesh within a fibreglass frame would stop any critters smaller than something like a big bear or a human without a bit more than a pocket knife. And it would be far harder to forget or have stolen, whilst far more than halving the weight. I'd stick a trembler alarm on it, too. That way, anyone or thing who starts pulling it away, or tampering with it, will have a minor heart attack when it goes off at 130dB in the dead quiet of the countryside!

This got rather long, as I took notes on the way in a text editor!

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

No point going fast then crashing in the hills and dying.

Lol! I'm guessing that you aren't a fan of motoX, enduro, or freestyle mountain biking...Fast is good, insanely fast better!

The suggestions of making a 4x4 affair are a bit daft. Sorry, but they are. All that gearing is going to loose a lot of energy as friction, and driving four wheels via chains, etc. is going to get very heavy. Drive one, or at most two wheels. If it is bad enough for it to slip, then you should get out and push or pull it.

Also not an off roader either I think...4X4 good and extremely simple to achive with 2 sprockets and 2 chains for the link between front and rear axles and 4 crank gears ranging from rediculously small (for very steep climbs and mud) to a large road sprocket for effecient cruising speeds on hard fairly level surfaces and downgrades driving an 8 speed mountain bike rearset yielding effecient ranges for all situations.

Now we'll look at this for a second-
Which is easier manually pulling 300Lbs up a long 6% grade or utilising a gear reduction to pedal up it?

How about more level terain...Which is more efficient walking while pulling the same load or using a faster gear range and pedaling?

Down hill? Which is easier (and more efficient) hoofin' it wrangeling the same load or ridin' the load down while braking?

As regards the wheels, bigger is better. Harder is also better. Soft wheels lose energy as you are dragging them around, as you have to deform the rubber. You are also asking for trouble if you get a puncture. Personally, I'd go for something with cartwheel sized wheels, as these have a much lower rolling resistance, and they also have a better tolerance of the odd pothole or stone in the path of the wheel. Two wheels rather than four,

Off road big fat and soft are always better. on road a wider tire inflated to it's lower pressure yields lower resistance with a heavier load than a skinny tire with higher pressure due to the squish factor (skinny tires support less weight (and squish alot more) due to the whole Lbs downforce-divided by square inches -X- Psi. thing ). But I believe you'll need off road capability far more than on.

[Turtle]

Originally Posted by nkt

Wow, what a neat thread!

Danke!

Originally Posted by nkt

This is a brilliant idea. Having something like this is great. I'm thinking of making one now, having only just seen this thread today.

Even better!!!

Originally Posted by nkt

Just watching the video you did. Very neat. It actually seems very long, but it is only 4 minutes. :-) Good idea with the water system, but I sure hope you have it baffled inside so it doesn't slosh all over when part-full, and it has at least two completely seperate parts to it, in case of a leak!

When part-full, the water is down in the legs. I may yet draw a working drawing so others may build it exactly as I did, but there's a brief description of the workings.

Going down each leg to the bottom of the ABS pipe is a 3/8" vinyl tube, and all the tubes connect to the outlet hose using barbed metal 'T's". To fill, remove one of the threaded caps on top of a leg & pour in the water. To dispense water, the cap is replaced and a bicycle pump is attached to a fitting in the top cap of one leg, and pumped. The pressure pushes the water equally down the legs & up through the 3'8" vinyl tubing and out the delivery end which exits one of the top caps. I have found that I can blow into the fitting too, and once the flow starts it continues by siphon action if the outlet tube is kept low enough.

Originally Posted by nkt

Since you have a winch already, the motor off this would probably be ideal.

I think so too. Remove the cable from the reel, and I have the motor & a transmission. If I didn't mention, the electric winch came with a crank handle, so I can work it even without juice.

Originally Posted by nkt

I'd stick a trembler alarm on it, too. That way, anyone or thing who starts pulling it away, or tampering with it, will have a minor heart attack when it goes off at 130dB in the dead quiet of the countryside!

I was thinking more like an electric fence unit as used for livestock, but connected to the wagon frame. :

Originally Posted by nkt

This got rather long, as I took notes on the way in a text editor!

Ditto!

Originally Posted by DoubleD

Now we'll look at this for a second-
Which is easier manually pulling 300Lbs up a long 6% grade or utilising a gear reduction to pedal up it?

Believe me, I have given this all a lot of thought. About 7 years of thought as best I can tell. I think winching is the 'easier' method, as well as the simplest in terms of equipment. A 6% grade is one thing, but what about the 50% grade? Or the sheer cliff?

Talk among yourselves.