Survival Wagon Idea - Recreation Or Reality TV

[Turtle]

Originally Posted by modest

So it's all electric? Have you considered propane? I recently built a water heater for an outdoor koi pond that's propane based - a little propane goes a long way. If you want to be heated or cook food that, I believe, would be the way to go. Of course, you can't fill up a propane tank in the wild.

I think if I were doing this I would have looked at some of the historical or other-cultural inspirations like:



kind of a rickshaw type thing:



I realize that's not currently helpful to your design. Just a passing thought. I do think larger wheels are very important.

Your idea is really cool Turtle.

-modest

All good stuff.
Electric is part of the kit, but not essential. The electric winch has a hand crank handle for example. Also, I carry the usual back-packer camp gear; saw, axe, file, machete, matches, flint kit, mess-kit etcetera to make & use wood fires. I do have a 2-burner propane stove and agree for camping it's very good. Sometimes in the Gifford Pinchot, fires are prohibited in Summer because of safety for the forest, but the propane stoves are allowed. Now I have my coffee can wood-gasifier stove too!

Oddly enough, this all started with a cultural inspiration, and not a nice one either. I was watching some historical films showing people fleeing the Nazis, Warsaw ghettos perhaps, and a few of the people had carts or wagons and it made me think they had a better chance of making a go on the road.

A last note on 2-wheel designs, and that is I see a big problem if you need to attach a line and haul it when your position is away from the cart; it's gonna tip and/or dig in & not roll. At the very least, an optional third wheel seems sensible.

Originally Posted by Ahmabeliever

Evolution has begun, trikes and quads battle for dominance, pneumatic tyres become filled with water, bamboo frames replace steel

the age of the aquatic rickshaw begins.

Now you're talkin'

[Turtle]

Originally Posted by nkt

...The inverter won't cope with that much power for long (the cooker ring), as the battery will sag rather a lot at that rate of discharge. Also, things like coils and elements have a huge in-rush current, which often trips the inverters over-current protection. ...

Just a note on this: The battery I have is of the 'deep-cycle' type, and weighs in at 52 pounds. As I understand it, it is designed to deliver high amps continuously. In my test run, the cables warmed, but the inverter didn't falter, so I think it's OK for intermittent use.

380 watts@ 120 volts = 3.17 amps : 3.17 amps + .5 amps (the inverter draw) = 3.67 amps: 3.67 amps for 20 minutes = 1.22 amp/hrs: battery fully charged = 100 amp hours: 20 minutes of cooker ring use uses 1.2% of my capacity without recharge.

And so it goes. :

[nkt]

Oh, well, if you've a deep cycle one, you will be far better off. Of course, I should have realised you had done your research!

I've got to get one. I've just got a split-charge relay for my van, and I've tracked down a good 1000W inverter so now it's just the deep cycle battery to find, then to install it, and have mains power wherever I drive. This would be very useful sometimes, as I'm a locksmith and on those odd occasions where I need mains power, I really need mains power! A (12V) spotwelder might also be handy for some of the big industrial jobs.

Back to the cart, there are definitely two designs here. One is the 4x4 chain driven off-roader (which I think is a non-starter, but please prove me wrong!) and the other is the two-wheeled man-driven rickshaw type.

I think bigger wheels are most important, as these will "bridge" for you automatically compared to the smaller wheels you have on the turtle-mobile (does it have a name?) A hole that the small wheel would require lifting or bridging over would be barely noticed by a rickshaw sized wheel. Also, ride quality is better with bigger tyres.

There is definitely much thought to go into this. I mean, if you had a re-configurable system, with 4 wheels, with two on each side on one axle, which could be removed to the front bar with an axle there, you could trivially swap from a 2 to 4 wheel design with no weight penalty - the load bearing surface area would be the same, too. Then, instead of a rigid bar to push on, you could walk a little ahead and use the pulleys or a rope or the pulling harness and proceed without balance issues.

As regards power systems, I'd go with an electrical booster system, or, if they ever get them working nicely, a small diesel engine. You can recharge the battery with wind, solar, leg, or gravity power, unlike a fuel based system. The diesel engine, you could run from many natural oils as well as heavy fuel oil, pump-bought diesel and farmer's diesel, all of which age far better than petrol, and all of which are far less flammable than petrol. The downside is, then it is a car! (or an invalid buggy, under UK law)

I'd go with a direct drive onto the tyre, and use a gearbox and some kind of neat chain or pulley system to link to the motor. Yes, it is dangerous, but it is lighter than a steel gearbox, and by driving near the top of the wheel you could avoid water ingress and mud issues.

I'd have a diff-lock pin for the axle, too. When you needed a hand to haul it over slippery stuff, drop the pins in. Far harder to turn, but both (or all four) wheels would drive together off that axle. You steer from the front, as normal, and use a hand operated switch to control the speed (or you could have it head up the path with you steering from behind, perhaps?). Torque would be nearly bottomless for off-road stuff, while changing the settings for a higher gearing would allow faster travel on tarmac, etc. (though this still leaves an issue with steering, which in this config would be hard to solve.)

Ok, I'm going to draw this on paper, and see what occurs.

[Turtle]

Originally Posted by nkt

Oh, well, if you've a deep cycle one, you will be far better off. Of course, I should have realised you had done your research!

I've got to get one. I've just got a split-charge relay for my van, and I've tracked down a good 1000W inverter so now it's just the deep cycle battery to find, then to install it, and have mains power wherever I drive. This would be very useful sometimes, as I'm a locksmith and on those odd occasions where I need mains power, I really need mains power! A (12V) spotwelder might also be handy for some of the big industrial jobs.

Good stuff! For around-the-house or other business, the portable power is very useful. With just the wagon, battery, inverter, and power tools, you have a portable shop. I used my setup for some fence work, and pulled the wagon along section-to-section; I had an electric circular saw and a drill for screws, and the wagon frame was my sawhorse.

Originally Posted by nkt

Back to the cart, there are definitely two designs here. One is the 4x4 chain driven off-roader (which I think is a non-starter, but please prove me wrong!) and the other is the two-wheeled man-driven rickshaw type.

I think bigger wheels are most important, as these will "bridge" for you automatically compared to the smaller wheels you have on the turtle-mobile (does it have a name?) A hole that the small wheel would require lifting or bridging over would be barely noticed by a rickshaw sized wheel. Also, ride quality is better with bigger tyres.

There is definitely much thought to go into this. I mean, if you had a re-configurable system, with 4 wheels, with two on each side on one axle, which could be removed to the front bar with an axle there, you could trivially swap from a 2 to 4 wheel design with no weight penalty - the load bearing surface area would be the same, too. Then, instead of a rigid bar to push on, you could walk a little ahead and use the pulleys or a rope or the pulling harness and proceed without balance issues.

I like the convertable 2-to-4 wheel idea, and I agree on bigger diameter wheels making for an easier pull (or push). With my wagon, I have thought I may at some time just add longer axles that extend beyond the sides, and put on bigger wheels. It would make it wider that way though. Also, if you have big front wheels on a 4-wheel cart, they have to go far enough forward of the box in order to do any turning without impinging on it. Not a problem with small wheels under the box as I have.

Originally Posted by nkt

Ok, I'm going to draw this on paper, and see what occurs.

Roger that; standing bye.

[Turtle]

Don't y'all know better yet than to feed the Turtle!!!

A big motivator for me in all this is a bad lower disk in my back which makes carrying a 70 pound pack very far these days, a no-go. With the wagon, it's, "are you still here?". My idea with having a belt attached to my pulling-poles is to put the load on my hips, below the bad disk.

I use a heating pad a lot for the ol' back, and I just realized that taking it along is a no-brainer. It's only 40 watts.

I got out the winch and put a photo below, and I weighed it at 20 pounds. It has 30 feet of cable and lists a 'rolling capacity' of 6,000 pounds, and a 'capacity' of 2,000 pounds. More than enough for a wagon in the 300 to 500 pound range. I don't find the motor rating, so I'll have to take off the cover & see if it's marked on the motor; it might be important to know how long you can use the winch before it drains the battery.

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

'rolling capacity' of 6,000 pounds, and a 'capacity' of 2,000 pounds.

6,000lbs. rolling weight = rolling weight, 2000lbs.= dead weight. I can push my truck with some dificulty with wheels and tires on it (rolling), without (dead) it ain't goin nowhere. Think stuck in mud vs. hung up in a ditch or high centered on a boulder. And of course subtract capability for steep inclines.

[Turtle]

Originally Posted by DFINITLYDISTRUBD

6,000lbs. rolling weight = rolling weight, 2000lbs.= dead weight. I can push my truck with some dificulty with wheels and tires on it (rolling), without (dead) it ain't goin nowhere. Think stuck in mud vs. hung up in a ditch or high centered on a boulder. And of course subtract capability for steep inclines.

Roger. Since I have ~ 4 times the capacity I need to dead-lift a 500 pound wagon straight up, no incline is a problem in regard to power. I took the cover off, and the motor is only marked with 12Volt and no amperage given.
Also forgot to mention that the winch recovers the cable @6 feet-per-minute, it has a hand-tensioning clutch, and a safety ratchet that is so noisy & irritating that I have little doubt ol' Nick came up with it himself.

I think a combination sun-shade & rain-cover out over the puller sounds sensible. I even have thought having a whole awning ready to fold out from the side of the wagon, something like you see on RVs. Instant camp!

Since I have got to talking this up so much again, the kids got wind of some of it and then apparently worried I might really go out alone and get in a fix. Anyway, they called me over tonight for a 'visit' & gave me a cell phone so we can 'keep in touch' , and I can check in or call for help if I go on a forest trip. Well, sometimes it's an OK idea to feed the turtle.

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

Who's Nick????

the kids got wind of some of it and then apparently worried I might really go out alone and get in a fix.

Lol! Mine are doing their best to encourage me to go!

[Turtle]

Originally Posted by DFINITLYDISTRUBD

Who's Nick????

Lol! Mine are doing their best to encourage me to go!

Nick is the Devil, CEO of Hell.

[DFINITLYDISTRUBD]

Attachment 2190
This is along the lines of what I have in mind ...the only differences being 4 wheels instead of 3, 4 wheel drive, more ground clearence, a box type bed, and a roll cage that doubles as a roof. (And of course several other goodies mentiond in previous posts.)